Skip navigation

NEED HELP?|

2163 Views 17 Replies Latest reply: Aug 8, 2011 9:22 AM by HugoTafurst 1 2 Previous Next
NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
May 21, 2010
Currently Being Moderated

Aug 7, 2011 10:22 AM

Off season ethics questions

1)  LL Majors. The bottom of the  5th. Home team is up 27 to 3. Home team head coach is also coaching 3rd. R3 runs home on passed ball. Close play, out or safe? Next R3 same thing.

2)  LL Majors. Coach walks onto field while calling time while the ball is still live.

3)  LL Majors. Visiting Head coach is also coaching third and "conferencing" each player as he walks to plate. Call strike/warn?

 

Just some fun talking points to play with since the season is almost over for most of us! These occurred to me this year.  I will post my decisions later, with more details at that time!

Happy Sunday all!!

 

Dan





Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Aug 7, 2011 10:32 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    1) Unless your league specifically opted out of the mercy rule, the game was over 14 runs ago.  Otherwise it's none of your business as an umpire. Call it what it is, not what you think it should be.

     

    2) Nobody cares unless he interferes somehow. Ask him to wait next time.

     

    3) You can only grant time for one offensive conference per inning.  If you didn't grant time and let it happen it's nothing.  If he's doing it as the batter is walking to the plate it isn't delaying anything so it's nothing. It's not a strike no way no how not ever. If he asks for time a second time don't grant it - if he doesn't heed you then warn - then if he persiste you can eject.

     

    You aren't the ethics policeman. You're the umpire. If you have a concern, address it with a league BoD member or the Pres.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Aug 7, 2011 11:24 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    1.  Might bring it to the attention of the UIC and have him pass it on.  In our league, we have the slaughter rule as an option, but I have never seen a coach pile it on just because he can.  Usually, I see them rein in the players as a lesson in sportsmanship.  It's the losing manager's problem if he does not concede and he continues to get waxed.  But as for a call, I blow 'em as I sees 'em!

     

    2.  Depends.  A lot of new managers just don't know this interpretation of the rules.  A good thing to cover in the plate conference.  But I did have one guy who WAS an attitude over the years, and he strutted out to the mound while play WAS going on.  Things settled fast, so once he got the the mound, I sounded off, "Time!"  I think he got the message.

     

    3.  Let me add a twist.  Suppose EVERY batter walks halfway down the line to get a sign.  I will nip that in the bud!  I tell the coach that the batter need only step out to get his sign;  I will give him plenty of time to step out, get the sign, and get ready again.  But don't teach each kid to be a "one man rain delay".  This fits my response to your basic post:  if it's not holding up the game, no sweat.  But if I think it is, I will simply tell the coach that when it's his batter's turn, I expect him to come to the plate directly.  (That's why he has signs in the first place.)  If he's holding up the game, that will be his offensive time out, and I will not entertain a request for another.  And I might mention that tactics that delay the game are punished by ejection of the manager.  Now, a quick discussion (friendly) has always worked for me.  Never had to threaten.

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Aug 7, 2011 11:38 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Re: #2----????

     

    You said.... "coach walks onto field while CALLING TIME while the ball is still live."     CAPS MINE!

     

    Rich replied:..."Ask him to wait NEXT TIME."           CAPS MINE!

     

     

    Why wait till "next time"-------????

     

    What ever happened to the coach ASKING for time-----and the UMPIRE granting or not granting the request?

     

    This..... during a live ball situation, the coach "calling time" was out of order; and if the ball was declared dead because of the coach's action improperly calling
    time" ...and.... "walks onto the field"------called for some sort of an immmediate warning/reprimand; so (hopefully) there will not be a "next-time" with this coach.

     

    IF, repeat IF, this coach was not "disciplined/stopped" immediately, then IMO, there is blame to share.

     

    Frank!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Aug 7, 2011 12:25 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Mike wrote in #1-----------re the LL "slaughter rule."

    "It's the losing manager's problem if he does not concede..........."

     

    By rule, as the "ten run/mercy rule" is written, the losing manager.... "SHALL CONCEDE."

     

    The RIM  clearly states:  "This rule is not an option for either manager."

     

    I run into this every year where the league opts, via local rules, to utilize the rule---then, individual losing managers say they will not concede the game.

     

    Problem arises when the losing manager does not concede and the winning manager-[at that point in the game]-- accepts the no-concession---and the game continues.

    Then as has happened, the losing team (sometimes) ends up rallying and winning the game-----with standings and playoffs implications.

     

    Then the "complaints" come in from team managers who complied with the 10-run rule and are impacted in the standings because a 10-run rule game was supposed to have stopped, and wasn't.

     

    Frank!

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Aug 7, 2011 2:15 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Frank,

     

    As long as I have been a LL umpire, the LGR states the slaughter rule (Regular Season, mind you), but they give the local leagues the option to continue as long as it is codified in their local rules.  This is the ONLY place where you don't have to go to W-Port for a waiver.  Agree what the RIM says, but the book says a codified change was allowed.

     

    I have only had 1 concession in 23 years in my league!  And that was because a thunderstorm was about to wipe us out in the home-league tourney, and the HT was up 15 runs after 3-1/2.  The VT wanted to continue at first, but then the weather started to encroach.  The VT manager felt it best to concede for the sake of safety.

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Aug 7, 2011 2:19 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Frank - it's really common - especially at shaving levels where, for exqmple, on a walk NOBODY is going to try any funny plays, and the coach starts for the mound to talk to the pitcher before the batter-runner gets to1B.  And nobody cares.  It's normal at those levels.  Heck, in MLB they even cll time before the runner gets to 1B.  So as long as there's no disruption just let the coach head out.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Aug 7, 2011 2:22 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    First, you opt out - not in, as a league - for the season. Absent an opt out it's in effect.

     

    Second, the resulting rule is NOT optional by managers and/or by game.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Aug 7, 2011 2:57 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Mike:

     

    Re your 1st para----we're on the same page there.

     

    Not in your 2nd para because the LGR says the losing team "shall concede"-----as does the RIM state if the mercy rule is in place, the managers have no option to  continue the game.

     

    Frank!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Aug 7, 2011 3:19 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Rich:

     

    I'm with you in your 1st sentence. A league going with (using) the mercy rule need not embody that decision in their local rules.

    That I knew, and have known, for years.

     

    BUT, I encourage/ask my leagues to make it absolutely clear in their local rules---[which come thru me, being delegated by my DA to review all legue's local rules to ensure they are not "messing" with a LL Rule, regulation, or policy that requires  waiver approval]---that their league, is in fact, using the mercy rule. No harm, no foul, because all my leagues willingly comply with my request.

     

    But not to  overshadow my point, made in my reply to Mike, which is reinforced in your 2nd sentence,

     

    Frank!

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    11. Aug 7, 2011 3:40 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Frank!  C'mon!

     

    The book allows a local rule to be made as LONG AS IT'S CODIFIED!

     

    In my league it is!  It has been for a million years!  So the losing team is asked at 3-1/2 or 4 if they wish to concede.  If they don't, we finish 6!  That's OUR local rules which have been approved IAW the rules!

     

    I agree that a non-codified "cowboy" rule, is not in my lexicon!  If we must concede after the appropriate half-inning, I'm leaving the field!  No option!

     

    I'm having a tough time imagining if a team is down 10 runs that the other team can catch up,  Wouldn't happen in my league!  :-)  The winning teams usually are further ahead than that!

     

    I just WISH they's concede!  It's a pain to watch "child abuse" in a Majors level game that is so out of control!

     

    Mijke CVUA

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Aug 7, 2011 3:45 PM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Rich:

     

    The OP stated his scenario  talking  LL Majors this thread.

     

    Time for a "teaching/learning" moment for that particular coach.

    This subject coach's conduct, as described by our OP, IMO-- should never be "really common" (allowed) at LL Majors level.

     

    My grandson, when playing  Majors,  a real speedster. More times you can count on both hands, on a base on balls, caught many a pitcher and/or catcher by surprise by "keeping on truckin'" all the way to 2nd base. Oftentimes ending up on 3rd when either the pitcher or catcher threw the ball into center field in a vain attempt to nail him at 2nd.  Never got thrown out once.

     

     

    Enjoy the Yanks/Red Sox game to-nite. Looks like it's a go after the heavy rain today.

     

    Frank!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Aug 7, 2011 4:16 PM (in response to Mike_CVUA)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    Mike:  "C'mon!"   [Why, where are we going?]   

     

    All I have cited  is the wording  in Rule 4.10(e) and the RIM's INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS governing that rule---within the context of the OP's post.

    Not your league's local rule on the subject.

     

    Now the bigger question! Does the league NELL is talking about codify a game by game manager's option re the mercy rule, as you described, being in place in your league's local rules?

     

    If not, then I stand by all my rule/RIM references as applying to the  LL slaughter rule-----as we all know it to be----ABSENT ALLOWED LOCAL RULES TO THE CONTRARY!

     

    Talking the forest here....not a tree!!

     

    Frank!

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Aug 7, 2011 5:48 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Off season ethics questions

    So suppose play has stopped and I ask permission to leave the dugout to go talk to my pitcher and the umpire says no.  Now what do I do?  Is he within his rights?  Where is this question answered?

     

    Some rules are enforced strictly. Some are ignored unless there's a complaint (coach box, F3 in foul ground, etc.). Unless he's disrupting play, a coach headed to the nmound is in a no harm, no foul situation.  Enforce it as necessary, not as a blanket.  Because the sutuation dictates your action.  Then they'll learn when it's OK and when it isn't.

1 2 Previous Next

More Like This

  • Retrieving data ...