Harry Trotter-What do you think about ...

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55 Replies Last post: Feb 26, 2008 10:12 AM by homeskoolyZ 1 2 3 4 Previous Next

CSuzette

290 posts since
Apr 8, 2005

May 17, 2006 9:44 AM

Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

formulas?

Comparing Aerobic and Anaerobic Metabolism (from the Coe book page 61)

The generalized equation for aerobic breakdown of a carbohydrate such as glucose results in enormous amounts of energy for work, as shown below:

C6H12O6 + 6 O2<arrow>6 CO2 + 6 H2O + 36 ATP

For fatty acid breakdown the reaction is similar in principle and also releases plenty of energy. Fatty acid breakdown is summarized by the following equation, using palmitic acid as an example:

C16H32O2 + 23 O2 <arrow> 16 CO2 + 16 H2O + 130 ATP

I think looking at this you can see that a little more O2 is required on the left sideof the equation, but that dramatically more ATP is produced as shown on the right.

Not only that, but the chapter goes on to talk about the lactic acid that is produced from the breakdown of glucose which needs to be dealt with.

Can you honestly state that based upon these equations that glucose metabolism is more efficient?

pigeye097

214 posts since
Nov 2, 2006

1. May 17, 2006 10:24 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

Wow! You mean....fat has more kCal/g than carbohydrate?
I really didn't see that one coming.

jedi knight

40 posts since
Dec 12, 2007

2. May 17, 2006 10:27 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

Compare the ratio of ATP to O2. In the first EQ the ratio is 36:6, or 6 to 1. In the second EQ, it is 130:23 or 5.65 to 1. Based on that, yes the glucose reaction is more effecient.

LewJ

149 posts since
Feb 13, 2006

3. May 17, 2006 10:32 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

I think looking at this you can see that a little more O2 is required on the left sideof the equation, but that dramatically more ATP is produced as shown on the right.

What a gross misinterpretation. The carb cycle produces six ATP per O2 and the fat cycle produces ~5.6 ATP per O2. Since O2 is the usual limiting factor in running, the fat cycle is clearly less efficient at providing energy per unit of O2.

the chapter goes on to talk about the lactic acid that is produced from the breakdown of glucose which needs to be dealt with.

Old mythology. See current research on lactic acid's role:
http://www.runningplanet.com/articles/article_detail.asp?article_id=739[/URL" target="_blank">

Can you honestly state that based upon these equations that glucose metabolism is more efficient?

For running, sure thing. You even provided the equations which show it to be so. Only someone trying to defend an untenable position would think otherwise.

CSuzette

290 posts since
Apr 8, 2005

4. May 17, 2006 10:51 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

The gross efficiency difference is negligible. But, what if there are other factors at play here?

For example, it looks like more water is released. Does that make for better hydration?

Also, I have read all of the stuff regarding lactic acid. Lactic acid is produced during the breakdown of glycogen for energy. It is also apprently produced during anaerobic metabolism. It is broken down into lactate ions and H+ ions.

The H+ ions are what causes the muscle pain after exercise.

TE and I notice that we have no real delayed muscle soreness after exercise. This is in contrast to what both of us used to experience after strenuous exercise. I think TE mentioned that years ago after a hard race he could barely get out of bed the next day. Now he has zero problems of racing week and week. I only get a little soreness if I have gone severely anaerobic the day before.

this place is so lame035

92 posts since
Feb 21, 2006

5. May 17, 2006 10:57 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

Cripes! CSuzette, let me quote you from the other thread:

quote:<HR>Originally posted by CSuzette:
The only real test is what happens out out the racing field.
<HR>

The best endurance athletes in the world (runners, cyclists, etc.) eat a high-carb diet. If you believe that the racing field is the ultimate test, then you've already proved to yourself that high-carb is the best.

Regarding lactic acid, it's been established recently that lactic acid is not the culprit in delayed muscle soreness. The lactate concentration in the muscles goes back to normal (non exercising) levels within minutes after exercise terminates, the muscle soreness lasts for days.

And it's no big suprise that you rarely suffer muscle soreness because you don't fuel yourself properly to run hard enough to initiate it!

Ariann092

681 posts since
Jan 4, 2005

6. May 17, 2006 10:59 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

If you had read the stuff about lactic acid, you would know that the lactic acid causing soreness connection is exactly what has been debunked - neither the mechanism nor the time scale of the presence of lactic acid in the muscles actually explain soreness, particularly delayed soreness. It is currently believed that lactic acid is actually used as fuel. If you never feel sore, it's probably because you're not working all that hard.

And, the fat breakdown is LESS efficient in producing water than the glucose breakdown. There is a 1:1 ratio of oxygen to water in the glucose reaction, and about a 3:2 in the fat. Or, if you look at it from the standpoint of carbon, they are exactly as efficient in producing water. Hydration in this case is not the major issue, the limiting factor of oxygen is.

sixfeetsmall3x5

118 posts since
Apr 27, 2005

7. May 17, 2006 11:00 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

Seriously, what is the point of starting a new thread for the sole purpose of arguing? You know we don't agree with you, and probably no one here ever will...you aren't going to stop us from eating our bagels and fruit and whatever else, nor are we going to convince you to stop eating butter.

I'm all for healthy debate on topics, but this really is way past the point of debating...and really we're not benifiting either side.

Let's quit arguing, and go swap more recipes in the rhubarb thread or something.

Detroit094

133 posts since
Mar 14, 2005

8. May 17, 2006 11:29 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

------------------
My User Profile[/URL" target="_blank">

fredurie

1,979 posts since
Aug 21, 2002

9. May 17, 2006 11:33 AM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum5/HTML/003288.shtml[/URL" target="_blank">

totaleffort

280 posts since
Feb 10, 2006

10. May 17, 2006 1:09 PM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

quote:<HR>Originally posted by pigeye:
Wow! You mean....fat has more kCal/g than carbohydrate?
I really didn't see that one coming.<HR>

--------
Could you elaborate on the topic as it appears you are a physiologist and I detected surprise in your reaction to the post.

Much thanks !!

LewJ

149 posts since
Feb 13, 2006

11. May 17, 2006 1:19 PM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

quote:<HR>Originally posted by totaleffort:
Could you elaborate on the topic as it appears you are a physiologist and I detected surprise in your reaction to the post.<HR>

Here's a hint[/URL" target="_blank">...

jedi knight

40 posts since
Dec 12, 2007

12. May 17, 2006 1:22 PM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

quote:<HR>Originally posted by totaleffort:
--------
Could you elaborate on the topic as it appears you are a physiologist and I detected surprise in your reaction to the post.

Much thanks !!

<HR>

It's called sarcasm, not suprise.

Doesn't everyone know that fat has 9 Kcal/g, and carb has 4Kcal/g? So gram for gram, fat has more energy stored in it. It's just less efficient to burn it. The difference in efficiency may look small, but when it's scaled up by hundreds of thousands, it becomes a sizable difference.

Iontach

1,522 posts since
Dec 14, 2007

13. May 17, 2006 1:27 PM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

And doesn't everyone know that Dr Mr Dr Pigeye is a physiologist?

CSuzette

290 posts since
Apr 8, 2005

14. May 17, 2006 1:31 PM

in response to: CSuzette

Re: Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

So, TE is able to increase his mile time over 4 miles by an astonishing 50 seconds per mile in one year. Can it be possible that no one is wondering whether his diet made it possible?

It is shown that the H+ ions released during lactic acid production is what causes the muscle pains after exercise. And, lactic acid is produced when glycogen is utilized for energy, whether aerobically or anaerobically.

My understanding is that lactic acid is a buffering agent.

Try to keep your physiology straight.

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May 17, 2006 9:44 AM

Harry Trotter-What do you think about these

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