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1787 Views 7 Replies Latest reply: Aug 24, 2011 8:12 AM by mackman RSS
PirateMike1973 Amateur 14 posts since
Jul 11, 2011
Currently Being Moderated

Aug 22, 2011 10:19 AM

LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

If you missed this game, you missed a very good LL game.  I'd like expert opinions on an apparent double down the left field line that U3 called foul (looking over his shoulder & backing out of the way), as ball went by him, that the left field foul line Ump calls fair.  After discussions and questions by both Managers and the PU with officials (along the 3rd base line, Tourney Director(?),  the play was allowed to stand as a foul ball.

 

The explaination the announcers gave was- "once the ball is called foul, it's foul and cannot be over-ruled".

 

I think this begs the question(s)- What's the point of the outfield Umps if not to make a call once the ball goes past the base & the base ump?  And, if the intital call IS the call, what's the purpose of appealing a call AND the instant replay LLWS is using this year to help get calls correc,t if not to correct an incorrect call?  (And BTW, should I even bother to ask about the comments by the announcers on the U3 throwing his hands in the air that they said meant "foul ball" and I think in a previous post this summer someone stated that that this actually meant "time out"...I could be misremembering this....)

 

Replays showed the ball clearly hitting on the left field line & the left field ump called it correctly.

 

This call could have been a huge difference maker in a 1-0 game.

  • TheMouth__1 Legend 917 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Aug 22, 2011 12:40 PM (in response to PirateMike1973)
    Re: LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

    Wow, Pirate, I didn't see that particular play but your points bring to question the whole idea that Williamsport is trying to "get it right".   TM

  • BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
    Nov 26, 2002
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Aug 22, 2011 3:34 PM (in response to PirateMike1973)
    Re: LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

    If you missed this game, you missed a very good LL game.  I'd like expert opinions on an apparent double down the left field line that U3 called foul (looking over his shoulder & backing out of the way), as ball went by him, that the left field foul line Ump calls fair.  After discussions and questions by both Managers and the PU with officials (along the 3rd base line, Tourney Director(?),  the play was allowed to stand as a foul ball.

    The explaination the announcers gave was- "once the ball is called foul, it's foul and cannot be over-ruled".

     

    Ya, lousy call but you can't unspill that milk. Which is why its better to delay, take a breath, count to 3, etc.

     

    I think this begs the question(s)- What's the point of the outfield Umps if not to make a call once the ball goes past the base & the base ump?

     

    That's what should have happened until U3 jumped the call.

     

    And, if the intital call IS the call, what's the purpose of appealing a call AND the instant replay LLWS is using this year to help get calls correc,t if not to correct an incorrect call?

     

    Replay could not over rule a foul ball call, so it was a waste of time.

     

    (And BTW, should I even bother to ask about the comments by the announcers on the U3 throwing his hands in the air that they said meant "foul ball" and I think in a previous post this summer someone stated that that this actually meant "time out"...I could be misremembering this....)

     

    That was IMO the leat of U3's indiscretions Since a foul ball called is a dead ball and therefore time is out.





    Time wounds all heels.....

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Aug 24, 2011 6:35 AM (in response to PirateMike1973)
    Re: LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

    **** Serious Mental Typo!  I was so hung up on the PA-GA game foul call, I thought that's what you were talking about.  My discussion is aimed there.  Sorry about that!  ******

     

    With the benefit of replay and DVR, here's what I think happened [in the PA-GA game].

     

    The ball hit the corner of the 3B bag and bounded fair.  U3's vision was blocked by F5.  I think he thought that the ball was touched by the fielder in FOUL territory, so he called it foul.

     

    HOWEVER, (comma), this was a mechanically BLOWN CALL!

     

    The PU has fair/foul up to the front of the bag just for this reason!  In watching the discussion, PU had it fair because he saw it hit the bag.  (BTW, U8 should not have even been in this discussion.)

     

    IMO, the proper thing to have done would have been to let the play go on.  The bell can be Un-Rung it it really were foul!  Just re-set everybody, add a strike to the count, and put the batter back.

     

    But once the ball is called "foul", the ball is dead and nothing can continue.  For better or worse, it was (therefore) a foul ball.  ["I blow 'em as I sees 'em!"]  Can't be given a do-over; can't arbitrarily award bases.  It was a foul ball!  Period!

     

    Even the broadcast crew had the analysis right!  The play should have been allowed to continue and then reversed; but the foul ball kills it.

     

    I sensed that PU and U3 exchanged some words that U3 had poached the call......and kicked it all the way to the NFL!

     

    Mike CVUA

     

    Message was edited by: Mike_CVUA

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Aug 24, 2011 5:51 AM (in response to PirateMike1973)
    Re: LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

    Bad call but not as bad as the one last night in the Pa/Ga game.

    R1 and R3, Batter hits a ground ball right down the 3rd base line.

    R3 charges home, F5 moves over to field the ball and it hits the bag.

    Plate Ump signals fair and U3 signals/calls Foul!

    Of course on the "play" R3 scored and R1 moved up and BR was safe at first.

    BUT, the ball was called FOUL so the play was nullified and the runners returned and BR put back up at the plate.

     

    1) The ball had not passed 3rd base so it's the PUs call not U3s.

    2) The ball hit the bag so how could U3 call it foul anyway?

     

    Very poor umpiring by U3 on this one.

  • UWMad Rookie 7 posts since
    Apr 16, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Aug 24, 2011 6:18 AM (in response to Lou_B)
    Re: LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

    I agree that in Little League (and elsewhere) there is no rule basis for reversing a call of "Foul". The text below, extracted from another forum, describes a situation in which a call of "Foul" in essence was reversed -- everyone knew it was wrong so they all went ahead with what obviously was correct.  One question might be whether any of the participating umpires after the play should have raised and enforced the technical point that "Foul" was called, the play is "dead", all runners and the batter needs to return, etc.  Especially interesting would have been if U3 who initially had made the correct call would now have insisted that his correct call (which he knew with 100% confidence was correct) should give way to the call of "Foul" by the HP.

    I have experienced an example, obviously not in compliance with the LL rules, in which one umpire's loud and repeated call of "Foul" was ignored by everyone -- and life just went on. Situation was a mixed crew for an All-Star game. I'm U3 and turn to view a line drive hit along the left field line. It lands on a fly at least one ball width in fair territory and I start giving a hard and repeated "Fair" signal. In the meantime, I hear PU screaming "Foul, Foul". I was sorely tempted to yell something like "Fair, Fair, It's my call, It's Fair" but I did not. EVERYONE COMPLETELY IGNORED THE PU'S CALL. Runners went full throttle all the way and scored. Batter ran hard all the way and made third. Defenders, particularly the LF, played the ball as fair. No one raised a peep at the end of the play -- not the defenders, nor their coaches, not even their fans. PU just went on with the game, not attempting to enforce the call he had made. Likewise, none of the other umpires jumped in to enforce the "Foul" call.
    In between innings PU approaches me to apologize for not having adhered to the mechanics we had pre-gamed. I didn't bother to ask we he had called it "Foul" vice "Fair".

  • mackman Pro 83 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Aug 24, 2011 8:12 AM (in response to PirateMike1973)
    Re: LLWS PA-KY Game Fri Night Foul Ball Call

    A call of 'fair' can be reviewed and changed to foul.  A call of 'foul' cannot be reviewed and changed back to fair.  Additionally, if any umpire calls a ball foul, then the call of foul must stand.  The reason for this is that you cannot correct a foul call and place runners where you *think* they may have gone to.  There's no remedy for that situation because there's no way to know what may have otherwise happened.  Because of that, you have to stick with the bad call.  A fair call, on the other hand, can easily be reversed since everyone just goes back to where they were and the batter comes back to the plate.

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