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4743 Views 16 Replies Latest reply: Dec 13, 2011 2:11 PM by Rich_Ives RSS 1 2 Previous Next
callblue Amateur 19 posts since
Oct 23, 2001
Currently Being Moderated

Dec 7, 2011 1:03 PM

What to do with a pitcher hitting multiple batters in LL

What do you think should be done when you a pitcher who is not intentionally throwing at batters but hits as many as 8 in a 3 inning stretch and the Manager, (his father), would not remove him?

 

I had this last season and even though I should not have, I squeezed the zone so tight that the Manager, after calling time and asking me about the strike zone,( I reminded him that it would be a quick trip to the parking lot if he continued), that he finally pulled him.

 

I did not think it fair to remove the pitcher for intentionally throwing at batters since he was just not throwing well that day.  Not his fault that his father kept him in, even though they were losing by 8 runs after the 3 innings.

 

Since other than removing the pitcher with the intentional rule, what else would you have done?

  • BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
    Nov 26, 2002

    What do you think should be done when you a pitcher who is not intentionally throwing at batters but hits as many as 8 in a 3 inning stretch and the Manager, (his father), would not remove him?

     

    What level of LL, lower minors where kids struggle more, or higher? What was dad's reason? No available replacement? Daddy ball?

     

    There has been much discussion on this board about "administrative removal" in these potential injury situations, so you will likely see it suggested in later replies, but that is fodder for the locals, not the umpire. As an umpire, I'm hinting to "dad' to get the wild thing out of there, but .....as long as the bean ball is unintenional it's a potential slippery slope. Is there a league official around who could suggest the same to dad?

     

    His team will continue to put (damaged) runners aboard, without a pitching change, so................





    Time wounds all heels.....

  • BlueBlood Amateur 11 posts since
    Apr 3, 2002

    We have a league rule (majors and below).  Pitcher must be removed if he hits 3 batters in an inning or 4 batters in a game.

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    You do nothing, coaching is not your job. If you do anything, tighten the inside of the zone to protect the batter, DO NOT tighten anything else.

     

    Blueblood wrote:

    We have a league rule (majors and below). Pitcher must be removed if he hits 3 batters in an inning or 4 batters in a game.

     

     

    This is a prime example of a stupid local rule. You are the coach of the home team, I'm the coach of the visitors. You throw Mr. Stud to shut my team down. I instruct my batters to hug the inside corner, and the hit batters start stacking up. Three in an inning is easy to pull off, four in the game is cake.





    Michael S. Taylor

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    Another "well intentioned" but dumb Local Rule!

    All hit batters are not the same. 

    A pitch thrown in the dirt that bounces and hits a batter is far different than a fastball that clonks a kid in the head.

    Removing a pitcher for hitting batters is a manager's decision.

     

    An umpire "squeezing the zone" is NOT the answer, nor should it be done, in MY opinion.

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010

    I might offer the controversial answer here, but I think I would have to say, "How hard, and where, are these kids being hit?" (Levels of danger?)

    Safety should be our number one priority and if I feel there is potential danger of injury, I might call time and speak to the manager. This is Little League, right?

    It is because of Managers like the one listed above that these detested local rules get put into practise!

     

    If I suspected for a moment it was getting out of hand and disturbing the flow of the game, with the tears and pain management that is sometimes needed as each player gets hit, I might invoke 9.01 (c)&(d)

     

    So this, in my humble opinion, is a total judgement call! 35 miles an hour shirt brush on inside pitch, I will give you hundreds of them, start nailing 3, then 4 batters with 70 MPH fastballs in the back or head, I am discussing with the manager his options, or lack of player warming up.

     

    (Updated)After reviewing the rule book, looks like I could choose 4.06 (1) also as I am sure the team moms whose kids are getting beaned would be a tad upset!





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    (Updated)After reviewing the rule book, looks like I could choose 4.06 (1) also as I am sure the team moms whose kids are getting beaned would be a tad upset!

     

    There's not enough stretchy material in the world to make that connection valid.

     

    Unless it's really obvious that the HBPs are intentional - stay out of it.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    The OP asked....."What do you  think should be done?"..... After reading callblue's 2nd post------and, the presented actual scenario in both his post's, I would offer the following "solution"-----taken from a reply from Andy Konyar several years ago when I asked how he would handle a Little League  batter in the habit of throwing his bat,  putting people in harm's way.

     

    First, in my opinion, re the OP's situation --- it was not the pitcher putting the batters in harm's way------it was his manager, by not replacing the errant pitcher, who was putting the opposing batters in harm's way.

     

    With that in mind-----Andy's reply re a bat thrower!

     

    Speak to the manager and "suggest" he remove the batter from the line-up for obvious reasons.

    If the manager chooses not to remove the batter, advise the manager that the next incident of bat throwing by the subject player will result in the manager being ejected.

     

    Change the "bat-thrower" to a pitcher hitting eight batters  in three innings; the  last two:  "both  hit hard, one in the ribs and he went down"

     

    Some situations, particularly when eight kids have been hit in three innings, calls for common sense to be administered.

     

    Or, are adults going to stand by and "pray" this pitcher's next errant pitch doesn't result in facial damage to a batter.

     

    Frank!

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010

    Maybe you haven't seen some of these Zoomba blasting, Yogi using, gym chiseled, spin class maven, bad *** momma's I am up against!!! 

     

    http://www.signsfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/baseball-mom.jpg





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    Frank,

     

    Before I post my reply, let me blow the dust off this thing, since I have had this one around for about 20 years!  :-)  [Cough!  Cough!]

     

    <Pulling open the parchment/papyrus on which I wrote this opinion the first time.>

     

    OK, let me start with my usual bromide:  There are leagues out there (and YOU KNOW who you are!) that have house rules that say 3 HBP's = must replace pitcher.   And when I dicsuss this, I challenge the audience to consider if a pitch in the dirt that just "gets away" and hits the batter's great toe is any way differemt from a heater off the melon?  While you are contemplating that, I'll now post my opinion--right after saying "Local Rules are made by Fools!"

     

    Using the "Great Toe/Melon" criterion, I would judge if the pitch was deliberate.  [Not Likely!] But if I rule in the affirmative, the pitchers is gone and the manager will likely have a chance to join him.  But since it's not likely, I would have to judge--with the wisdom of Solomon--that the pitcher could be a safety hazard or not.  (And this may have to wait until the 2nd HBP!)

     

    I would talk to the manager and suggest that a safety issue may be in the offing,  And--despite what some umps believe--I do have the responsibility to enforce safety on a Little League field.  And thus, any more HBPs = ejection.  Thus, the manager might consider replacing the pitcher right now and take the opportunity to be a coach and teacher later. (And nobody gets hurt or ejected!)

     

    Whether you agree with my approach or not, there is NO WAY I am going to let a pitcher stay in to bean EIGHT batters in THREE innings!

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    Mike:

     

    In so many words put up by you and me, I conclude we are both on the same page and same mind re  multiple hbp batters and the "remedy." . Altho, it appeared from your reply to me you are trying to "sell" me "your

    "approach."    I bought Andy Konyar's approach years ago.... which mirrors yours!........And mine!

     

    For the record, I agree, the  "hbp's" does not, and really must not, have to  rise to the level of EIGHT batters being hit in three innings before taking action. In my reply I went with what was presented by the OP----which, as we know, was eight!.

     

    These kids are put in our care by their parents; we all have a responsibility, to the best of our knowledge and position to return them to their parents in good shape at day's end.

    Accidents  do happen in baseball as in all sports, but  being pro-active in preventing one whenever possible is simply the thing to do.    [Rulebook be damned if one's actions in preventing an injury to a kid is not covered or supported by same.]

     

    Frank!

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    Andy's "remedy", AKA "administrative removal" in some circles, was addressed to thrown bats and only thrown bats. In me recollection, no one from LL has ever attempted to apply it to HBP situations. In fact, LL has consistently ignored requests to add administrative removal to the rules.

     

    I really think you are overstepping your bounds if you attempt to apply this unofficial remedy to a different situation.

     

    Why not ask on the LL facebook discussions page. Perhaps you will get an answer from LL there.

  • BlueBeak Legend 300 posts since
    Nov 26, 2002

    I'd like to take this OP out to a new tangent, (If I may be so bold). Callblue replies:

     

    The game was at the LL Majors level. The Dad/Manager had other pitchers available. This was not my home league. I was asked to do the game (it decided their division winner for the District TOC), because both the Managers were a little hot headed and apparently "ran over" the league's umpires during the season, (so much for the  board involvement).

     

    Hot headed and apparently ran over the leagues umpires during the season? It sounds like you were brought into a situation caused by a weak board, weak umpires, or both. I am amiable as an umpire, up to the point where a coach/manager tries the "run over". What is a run over? It is (for me) the coach to try to implicate his will, in deference to the game, to the rules, to the situation. To try to influence the situation in his teams favor by bullying the crew with arguing/reasoning outside the norm.

     

    I've seen it and dealt with it as many here have. We are as officials, suppposed to keep reasonable control. Amiable goes out the window when I meet with this. Sounds like in your situation, the hot-heads were allowed to be so before you came in.

     

    Again, this is a tangent to the OP. This response does not deal with the OP at all, but rather deals with how it may have gotten to the point of needing this new umpire crew due to the "run over".  IMHO.

     

    BB





    Time wounds all heels.....

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    I have been that umpire that comes in to be the gunslinger. I have always been known as a fair umpire that is approachable, has a strong rules knowledge but will take care of business when needed. Many times managers like that need the extra tough umpires are a products of years of training. I did a game years ago that my boss was the VM and a coworker was the DM. They had both been good ball players and then coaches. They were used to getting their way and the more they get, the more they want it to go their way. They helped build the ballpark, all the buildings, everything. It becomes a sense of entitlement. The league depends on their help and resources, so they let them have their way  until it gets to a point that they have to reined in, here comes the gunslinger.

    The funny part was I tossed my boss and all was good. The construction company that he owned, and I worked for, rebuilt every building at the complex except the concession stand/meeting room. We also added a 30x40 eating area in front of the stand, all on the problem manager's dime.

    The point is guys do so much for a league that the leagues are afraid to make them mad.





    Michael S. Taylor

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