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16240 Views 45 Replies Latest reply: Dec 30, 2011 2:15 PM by Michael_Taylor RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 4 Previous Next
  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    15. Dec 15, 2011 5:30 AM (in response to Michael_Taylor)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Mike,

     

    You don't need to use HTML tags.  When you're typing a message, go to the upper right corner (in the gray border) and click on Use advanced editor.

     

    Now you can change the size of your font, the color of your font and couple of other things without using those annoying HTML tags.

     

    It also make quoting the previous message much easier.

    Michael_Taylor wrote:

     

    Yeah, I might have messed up the html tags. As far as whether that is taunting or not, it may not have been his intention but enough knuckleheads have preceded him and enough officials have ignored these knuckleheads that Fed has taken a lot of the judgment out of our hands and made it hard not to call.

     

    Emoticons are pretty easy too
    Bill

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    16. Dec 15, 2011 5:47 AM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Agreed!!   But I am not arguing in any way. Just openly opinionating.

    I like to debate with knowledgable and passionate people!! 

     

    For the record, the ruling, as it is written, was right.  No malice intended to the official that called it! 





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    17. Dec 15, 2011 10:41 AM (in response to Michael_Taylor)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Michael:

     

    Re "spiking the ball" by a player after a touchdown.

     

    I read your comments to mean that  the act calls for a penalty in pro football.

    I'm not sure how its written in the rules, if at all; but Ron Gronkowski, tight end for the Patriots, with 15 td's to date, has spiked the ball after every touchdown, and has only been called/penalized for it once.

     

    That  one-time  call/penalty was for spiking the ball in the end zone at the feet of a defensive player;  all other spikes--[not in front of a defensive player]-- were ignored-----as recently as last Sunday against the Redskins.

     

    Also, how many times have I heard NFL commentators in announcing key CHAMPIONSHIP  games, noting that field officials were not calling, or did not call, some insignificant no-harm foul act by a player. One they would of called in a regular season game.   More times than I can remember.

     

    The subject of this high school player raising his free arm and immediately lowering it  enroute to the end zone,with a championship game-winning touchdown,  the arm-rising and immediate lowering  being "called and penalized"  negating the  touchdown--- IMO------never should of happened!

     

    That touchdown, as with most all touchdowns, was the result of a total team effort to free up the ball carrier. Absent any overt physical taunting, verbiage, etc., directed at an opposing player, the arm-raising and immediate lowering never rose to the level of warranting a penalty.

     

     

    Frank!

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    18. Dec 15, 2011 9:29 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Overly Officious?

    I'm not saying I agree with the rule.  I'm not saying the player was taunting. 

     

    I am saying he broke the rule.  How many times do I have to say this?  These players KNOW THE RULE.  They simply dare the refs to call it.  I figured that when something like this is called, it would get people's attention and maybe coaches would re-emphasize (note the RE, becasue they've all been told REPEATEDLY about the rule) to their players not to do it.  But when even officials can't get it through their thick skulls that there's a rule and it WILL BE called, how can we expect rat coaches and kids to get it? 

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    19. Dec 15, 2011 10:26 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Overly Officious?

    Spiking itself isn't illegal in the NFL, but it has grown to rediculous portions. The shooting yourself in the leg, cell phones in the goal post, celebrating on the opposing teams logo. There are many,many others that have gone on, the younger guys see it and want to copy it. Also, pointing at other players is a big problem. Any type of celebration before the endzone is going to be construed as taunting.

    Was that the intention here, highly unlikely, but they have to be aware of the rules and stay away from violations. As far as listening to the talking idiots, ummm. I mean the announcers, anything they say about a game, especially rules is probably wrong.





    Michael S. Taylor

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    20. Dec 15, 2011 10:35 PM (in response to Michael_Taylor)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Sorry about the confusion I caused with my spiking question. As Michael says, spiking the ball after a touchdown is ok in the NFL, but not ok in NCAA and below, as far as I know. It was the prohibition in NCAA and below that I was intending to lament.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    21. Dec 16, 2011 3:30 PM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Appears we all have had our say, pro and con, regard the subject's arm raising being called an offense.

    Okay, let's say, for this discussion,  it was an "offense" the degree of which is debateable here and elsewhere.

     

    At the risk of belaboring the subject I would like to "discuss" the penalty assessed by the calling official.

     

     

    First, I'm not "up to speed" regarding the current high school rulebook penalty for taunting, unsportsmanship conduct, etc. If someone  here is more knowledgeable, then please tell me the high school rules in the case before us, a written penalty that  calls for the negating of the touchdown and placement of the football on the 24 yard line----If done I  will fade into oblivion with my  next thought. I played high school football,  back in the late 1940's and I'm sure many of the rules today did not exist back then.  I am aware the judged penalty arm-raising did occur on the 24 yard line of the opposing team----and probably why the ball was placed there after the call.

     

    Otherwise, if the penalty to be assessed is not in print, it would mean the penalty assessed was discretionary on the part of the official.

     

    [For the record, In the NFL  the TD would stand, and the penalty would be assessed on the kick-off]

     

    So, "IF" the penalty was discretionary on the part of the calling official---my view and opinion is:  the "punishment" far exceeded the percelved "harm" done via the momentary arm-raising "crime." 

     

    Frank!

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Dec 19, 2011 9:23 AM (in response to BlueBeak)
    Re: Overly Officious?

    Thanks BB, this makes it easier to understand!  I was wrong.

     

    The official who made this call WAS an idiot!!     Throwing him straight under the wheels of the bus!!!  

    My instincts are still good!!

     

    Amazing how quite this thread got after folks read the rule!! 





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    24. Dec 19, 2011 1:47 PM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Overly Officious?

    Reading the rule didn't change my view. I simply know that most crews are going to flag any celebration before the score.  It is going to be viewed as taunting whether it actually is or not. Wether they got the enforcment correct or not is another discussion. I don't do football so I have no idea, but even it is wrong I'm not saying anything. If any of you have never incorrectly enforced a rule then you can complain. If you have then there is no room to complain.

    We can discuss what they did wrong but not just complain that they made a mistake. We all hope that when we are on that big a game we don't make mistakes, but the fact remains that we just might.





    Michael S. Taylor

  • beowulf37 Legend 219 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    25. Dec 19, 2011 1:54 PM (in response to Michael_Taylor)
    Overly Officious?

    Let's not talk about "mistakes" on the part of the officials.  If a mistake was made, I maintain it was on the part of the players and coaches. 

  • Michael_Taylor Community Moderator 318 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    26. Dec 19, 2011 8:25 PM (in response to beowulf37)
    Overly Officious?

    I talked to a local white hat tonight, he said in HS it is a dead ball foul, enforced on either a two point conversion try or on the kick off. The college rule is spot of foul.





    Michael S. Taylor

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    27. Dec 20, 2011 10:26 AM (in response to Michael_Taylor)
    Overly Officious?

    Michael_Taylor wrote:

     

    I talked to a local white hat tonight, he said in HS it is a dead ball foul, enforced on either a two point conversion try or on the kick off. The college rule is spot of foul.

    And the (high school) game in question was being played under NCAA rules, so it sounds like a spot foul.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    28. Dec 21, 2011 3:03 AM (in response to NELL_blue)
    Overly Officious?

    NELL_blue wrote:

     

    Let me toss this up to you. Botttom of the 6th, and a player hits a walk off homerun to win it.  He is dancing and jumping and having a great time rounding the bases, shakes the third base coaches hand, and is met by the whole team who help hoist him up for him to land on home plate. In footballs mindset this would be excessive celebration. Imagine us having to send him back to first, which is where the celebration started. But we allow it in baseball, don't we? 

     

    NELL, as a counterpoint, suppose the organization had a specific policy that said there would be no act by a player following a home run that could be viewed as unsporting.  And that organization uses letters, roadshows, case plays, etc. etc. to get that point across to everyone.  Examples include standing and watching the flight of the ball, flipping the bat, holding the arms up as wings, flinging the batting helmet short of the plate (as is the norm now in MLB), etc.  Umpires are informed that they must mention this as a point of emphasis during plate conferences.  All they want is players to run the bases as if nothing is out of the ordinary.

     

    So in your example, are you going to say, "Aww, none of that was unsporting.  He was just having a moment of exaltation!"

     

    Well, that's debatable.  His dancing could be viewed by the opposing team as taunting.  And because of this, that is why the organization came out with that policy.  To ignore it as an official after all the emphasis the organization put on eliminating all acts of emotion that could make one player or coach upset would be a deriliction of duty.

     

    Sounds to me like that is what happened in MIAA.  There is zero tolerance to any form of celebration that may be viewed as unsporting, no matter how seemingly insignificant.

     

    Personally, do I like the policy?  Of course not.  It swings the pendulum too far to the opposite side, and turns game participants into robots.  But what choice do I have to ignore it after all the emphasis placed on it by the powers-that-be?

     

    Look, I don't care for the rule that makes it mandatory for LL uniforms to have a patch on them.  I ignore it when I see it, and when someone brings it up, I ask them if they REALLY want to go there.  But if Williamsport came out with a zero-tolerance announcement to everyone that no LLer will be allowed on the baseball or softball field without the patch, no ifs, ands, or buts, there's very little I can do.

     

    Manny Aponte

  • NELL_blue Legend 303 posts since
    May 21, 2010
    Currently Being Moderated
    29. Dec 21, 2011 4:37 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Overly Officious?

    Manny,

     

    Thanks for sharing the challenges. My vision of these rules goes back to trying to understand the intent of the rule. Once again, a poorly written, and then improperly applied rule, is not the fault of the official.

    I try to stay involved and challenge the rules, I also sit on local committees and try to wead through poorly written crap. People only write this stuff when pressure gets applied from somewhere. (Look at the bat regulations) Was it really "little Johnny was going to get killed on the pitchers mound" or was it, "Even little Janie can hit a homer everytime?" So smart people ge together to attempt to neutralize the situation and please both sides. There in lies the poor writing and then worst interpretation. Again, I try to look at implied intent. I also bring to my District UIC my concerns about adjective placement and possible readings of a rule.

    In your specific baseball scenerio, written the way you wrote it, I would have to discern between taunting and excessive celebration. I would make that judgement at that time, in real time. I would know it when I see it.

    In the case that started this thread, the official made a bad call based on the rules as written. A team had a championship stolen from it.

     

    Let me write one for you?  Bottom of game ending inning. Batter hits a home run over the fence, while rounding third he stops, turns to visitors dugout and makes like he is holding a machine gun and pretends to mow down the coaches and remaining visiting team. After 3 seconds of this, he continues and touches home plate for a walk off. Call?





    Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

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