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9672 Views 70 Replies Latest reply: Jun 14, 2007 11:44 AM by Nordic Berserker Go to original post 1 2 3 4 5 Previous Next
  • pfriese Legend 276 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    30. Jun 13, 2007 10:37 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    Good morning,

    Karl, it was raining in my part of town when the alarm went off. I waited until it quit before running thinking that it would be a nice, cool run. Wrong, it was 75 degrees with 100% humidity for my run this morning. I probably would have been cooler running in the rain. Anyways, I got in 5 miles @ 9:35/mile pace and was only a few minutes late for work.

    Also, Karl, I didn't get in to NYC Marathon either. I'm not all that disapointed since I'll be running Chicago in October. As you know my main reason was to make sure I run it sometime in the next few years, so I entered the lottery just to make sure that even if I don't get in for the next couple of years, they'll have to take me in 2010.


  • dtoce Legend 383 posts since
    Nov 10, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    31. Jun 13, 2007 10:43 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs


    Originally posted by vista129:

    Thanks for the responses and comments to each one. They ARE appreciated.

    It was interesting during the stress test exam that I was able to provide information that they confirmed. I told them my resting heart rate, my blood pressure, the fact my blood pressure would drop initially from the exercise, what my maximum heart rate was supposed to be, and this type of thing. They asked if I had studied medicine and I replied, "No, I just have smart runner friends who have taught me a lot".

    They talked about a CAT scan that I assume is like the one you mentioned dg9 (Thanks). They also suggested doing the invasive procedure where they thread a prod up through the groin area right into the arteries leading to the heart. If a blockage is found they can then angioplast / balloon it out and place a stent in there.

    The procedure of the stent has a failure rate of 5 deaths for every 1,000 done. Then the stent has been known to collect blood clots and become a problem by itself. Newer stents are dissolveable and better. However, if a person has the opportunity to use drugs (statins) to take care for the blockage rather than the balloon/stent procedure, the survival rate is better. As well, bypass surgery is also better over the long haul than the balloon/stent process. Obviously if I were going in while experiencing a heart attack, the choices would be limited. However, at this stage I have a little time to play with (or so it appears).

    My research says I DO have a blockage of some type. The symptoms are classic and plausible.

    So....I have come across an amino acid liquid treatment that cleanses the arteries. See the following if interested[/URL" target="_blank">

    It supposedly works quickly. It safely cleanses and then a maintenance program can be done. I feel that if I immediately start this, it can provide the cleaning out of the arteries that I need. If in a set period of time I don't get the relief, then I can follow through with which ever plan the doctors recommend. I KNOW my body and how to test this.
    All I have to do is run exactly 1/4 mile and the sensation is there. If this stuff works, it will disappear.

    By the way, I am going to be walking and doing some cross training as you have suggested. I can tell when this discomfort is coming on and if I stop immediately I should be fine. Hopefully I can start using this amino acid stuff and start clearing this up.

    OK....anyone have experience with this? Shoot down my plan here if you see something that I am missing.

    Thanks for reading and for the interest.

    Sorry for being long, but those interested will read it and those not interested will skip overit. I feel like this is something others have/will face and can be beneficial to me AND others.


    funny, I have these conversations with my patients literally every day and very few of them can digest what I tell them nearly as well as you have. I tell all of my patients that diagnostic cardiac caths are pretty darn safe in good and experienced hands and sometimes you just need to know if you have CAD or not. Based on what you say, you are very correct to presume you have it and an angiogram appears indicated.

    I won't comment on 'amino acid artery clearing/cleaning'...or the utility of CT scanning versus other testing...

    I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it all comes out ok... !|src=|border=0!

    AKA D.Toce MD FACC (Fellow American Collage of Cardiology)

  • seemomgo Pro 164 posts since
    Aug 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    32. Jun 13, 2007 10:57 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    Good morning.
    8 miles at 10 min pace. Beautiful humid morning after yesterday's rain. A nice run over to the resevoir and home. Kids are at camp, so a little more time to post and catch up.
    Vista - you are so smart to be listening to your body.  Keep well.

  • hally Legend 1,194 posts since
    Aug 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    33. Jun 13, 2007 11:27 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs


    Originally posted by dg9:

    Vista, I wonder if your doctor would let you get a 64-slice CT scan before doing something invasive?   <a href=",7120,s6-241-28611336-0,00.html" target="_blank">,7120,s6-241-28611336-0,00.html[/URL" target="_blank">

    Mary, yeah, I know! Glad you had a good one.

    Barb, I kind of thought you might.          How has this personal trainer thing worked out for you?   I think about trying one, sometimes.  Just short term, to tweak (a big hugh tweak) what I do. 

    I am happy that I did the Personal Trainer thing.....I can't justify doing it long term $$ wise but it got me to work much harder then I had been doing instead of just basically wasting my time. I was not challenging myself and I was avoiding the exercises I didn't care for. So, I was putting in time at the gym but not really getting any results. If you can swing it financially I recommend to go for it.

  • RunstheBitterroot Legend 591 posts since
    Aug 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    34. Jun 13, 2007 11:28 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    Hi Boomers!  Vista, I think it is probably a good idea to stick with doctors recomendations when it comes to real health issues.  Go to this site and do some investigation, there is some info on chelation therapy in there somewhere.  Quackfiles[/URL" target="_blank">. You might get a laugh to about "blessed water".
    Off to a nice run on the Bitterroot! Good Runs All! Larry


    "If you see a man running up a mountain trail in Montana with a fly pole attached to his back, you are probably lost. LDD

  • dtoce Legend 383 posts since
    Nov 10, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    35. Dec 23, 2007 2:09 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs


    Originally posted by RunsTheBitterroot:

    Hi Boomers! Vista, I think it is probably a good idea to stick with doctors recomendations when it comes to real health issues. Go to this site and do some investigation, there is some info on chelation therapy in there somewhere. Quackfiles[/URL" target="_blank">. You might get a laugh to about "blessed water".
    Off to a nice run on the Bitterroot! Good Runs All! Larry


    thanks for the link Larry. That link is on my other computer.

    Chelation "Therapy"...and I use that term loosely...
    Chelation Therapy:
    Unproven Claims and Unsound Theories
    Saul Green, Ph.D.
    Chelation therapy, as discussed in this article, is a series of intravenous infusions containing disodium EDTA and various other substances. It is sometimes done by swallowing EDTA or other agents in pill form. Proponents claim that EDTA chelation therapy is effective against atherosclerosis and many other serious health problems. Its use is widespread because patients have been led to believe that it is a valid alternative to established medical interventions such as coronary bypass surgery. However, there is no scientific evidence that this is so. It is also used to treat nonexistent "lead poisoning," "mercury poisoning," and other alleged toxic states that practitioners diagnose with tests on blood, urine, and/or hair.

    The proponents' viewpoints have been summarized in four books: The Chelation Answer: How to Prevent Hardening of the Arteries and Rejuvenate Your Cardiovascular System (1982), by Morton Walker, D.P.M., and Garry Gordon, M.D.; Chelation Therapy: The Key to Unclogging Y our Arteries (1985), by John Parks Trowbridge, M.D., and Morton Walker D.P.M.; A Textbook on EDTA Chelation Therapy (1989), by Elmer M. Cranton, M.D.; and Bypassing Bypass: The New Technique of Chelation Therapy (2nd edition, 1990), by Elmer Cranton, M.D., and Arline Brecher. The scientific jargon in these books may create the false impression that chelation therapy for atherosclerosis, and a host of other conditions, is scientifically sound. The authors allege that between 300,000 and 500,000 patients have safely benefited. However, their evidence consists of anecdotes, testimonials, and poorly designed experiments.

    This article identifies the major claims made for EDTA chelation and examines each in light of established scientific fact. The sources used for this review included position papers of professional societies, technical textbooks, research and review articles, newspaper articles, patient testimonials, medical records, legal depositions, transcripts of court testimony, privately published books, clinic brochures, and personal correspondence. Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    Early History
    The term chelate, from the Greek chele for claw, refers to the "claw-like" structure of the organic chemical ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA), first synthesized in Germany in the 1930s. With this claw, EDTA binds di- and trivalent metallic ions to form a stable ring structure. EDTA is water-soluble and chelates only metallic ions that are dissolved in water. At pH 7.4 (the normal pH of blood) the strength with which EDTA binds dissolved metals, in decreasing order, is: iron+++ (ferric ion), mercury++, copper++, aluminum+++, nickel++, lead++, cobalt++, zinc++, iron++ (ferrous ion), cadmium++, manganese++, magnesium++, and calcium++.

    Mercury, lead, and cadmium cannot be metabolized by the body and, if accumulated, can cause toxic effects by interfering with various physiological functions. These substances are called "heavy metals," a term applied to metallic elements whose specific gravity is about 5.0 or greater, especially those that are poisonous. Except for aluminum, the other elements listed in the previous paragraph are essential nutrients that are needed for normal metabolic activity.

    After EDTA was found effective in chelating and removing toxic metals from the blood, some scientists postulated that hardened arteries could be softened if the calcium in their walls was removed. The first indication that EDTA treatment might benefit patients with atherosclerosis came from Clarke, Clarke, and Mosher, who, in 1956, reported that patients with occlusive peripheral vascular disease said they felt better after treatment with EDTA Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs.

    In 1960, Meltzer et al., who had studied ten patients with angina pectoris, reported that there was no objective evidence of improvement in any of them that could be ascribed to the course of EDTA chelation treatment. However, during the next two months, most of the patients began reporting unusual improvement in their symptoms. Prompted by these results, Kitchell et al. studied the effects of chelation on 28 additional patients and reappraised the course of the ten patients used in the original trial Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. They found that although 25 of the 38 patients had exhibited improved anginal patterns and half had shown improvement in electrocardiographic patterns several months after the treatment had begun, these effects were not lasting. At the time of the report, 12 of the 38 had died and only 15 reported feeling better. (This "improvement" was not significant, however, because it was no better than would be expected with proven methods and because there was no control group for comparison.) Kitchell et al. concluded that EDTA chelation, as used in this study, was "not a useful clinical tool in the treatment of coronary disease."

    The "Approved" Protocol

    The primary organization promoting chelation therapy is the American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM), which was founded in 1973 as the American Academy for Medical Preventics. Since its inception, ACAM's focus has been the promotion of chelation therapy. The group conducts courses, sponsors the American Journal of Advancement in Medicine, and administers a "board certification" program that is not recognized by the scientific community. ACAM's online directory lists about 850 members, about 550 of whom indicate that they practice chelation therapy.

    In 1989, an ACAM protocol for "the safe and effective administration of EDTA chelation therapy" was included in Cranton's "textbook," a 420-page special issue of the journal that contains 28 articles and a foreword by Linus Pauling. The protocol calls for intravenous infusion of 500 to 1,000 ml of a solution containing 50 mg of disodium EDTA per kilogram of body weight, plus heparin, magnesium chloride, a local anesthetic (to prevent pain at the infusion site), several B-vitamins, and 4 to 20 grams of vitamin C. This solution is infused slowly over 3.5 to 4 hours, one to three times a week. The initial recommendation is about 30 such treatments, with the possibility of additional ones later. Additional vitamins, minerals, and other substances—prescribed orally—"vary according to preferences of both patients and physicians." Lifestyle modification, which includes stress reduction, caffeine avoidance, alcohol limitation, smoking cessation, exercise, and nutritional counseling, is encouraged as part of the complete therapeutic program. The number of treatments to achieve "optimal therapeutic benefit" for patients with symptomatic disease is said to range from 20 ("minimum"), 30 (usually needed), or 40 ("not uncommon" before benefit is reported") to as many as 100 or more over a period of several years. "Full benefit does not normally occur for up to 3 months after a series is completed," the protocol states -- and "follow-up treatments may be given once or twice monthly for long-term maintenance, to sustain improvement and to prevent recurrence of symptoms." The cost, typically $75 to $125 per treatment, is not covered by most insurance companies. Some chelationists, in an attempt to secure coverage for their patients, misstate on their insurance claims that they are treating heavy-metal poisoning.

    In 1997, ACAM issued a revised protocol describing the same procedures but adding circumstances (contraindications) under which chelation should not be performed. As in 1989, the document gives no criteria for determining: (1) who should be treated, (2) how much treatment should be given, or (3) how to tell whether the treatment is working.

    Unproven Claims

    Proponents claim that chelation therapy is effective against atherosclerosis, coronary heart disease, and peripheral vascular disease. Its supposed benefits include increased collateral blood circulation; decreased blood viscosity; improved cell membrane function; improved intracellular organelle function; decreased arterial vasospasm; decreased free radical formation; inhibition of the aging process; reversal of atherosclerosis; decrease in angina; reversal of gangrene; improvement of skin color, healing of diabetic ulcers. Proponents also claim that chelation is effective against arthritis; multiple sclerosis; Parkinson's disease; psoriasis; Alzheimer's disease; and problems with vision, hearing, smell, muscle coordination, and sexual potency. None of these claimed benefits has been demonstrated by well-designed clinical trials.

    In a retrospective study of 2,870 patients treated with NaMgEDTA, Olszewer and Carter (1989) concluded that EDTA chelation therapy benefited patients with cardiac disease, peripheral vascular disease and cerebrovascular disease. These conclusions were not justified because the people who received the treatment were not compared to people who did not.

    In 1990, these authors carried out a "double-blind study" in which EDTA chelation was used to treat ten patients with peripheral vascular disease. The authors claimed that this was the first such study. The patients' progress was evaluated by measuring changes in their blood pressure and their performance in exercise stress tests before, during, and after the course of treatment. The authors claimed that EDTA had a significant impact on the patients' clinical status because the removal of calcium, copper and zinc from the vascular compartment corrected cholesterol and lipoprotein metabolism; triggered a parathyroid response that pulled calcium from the bones; decreased platelet aggregation; lessened iron-generated free radical formation; reduced membrane lipid peroxidation; decreased plaque formation; and prevented intracellular calcium accumulation.

    Between 1963 and 1985, independent physicians published at least fifteen separate reports documenting the case histories of more than seventy patients who had received chelation treatments. They found no evidence of change in the atherosclerotic disease process, no decrease in the size of atherosclerotic plaques, and no evidence that narrowed arteries opened wider.

    More recently, the results of two randomized, controlled, double-blind clinical trials of chelation therapy were published in peer-reviewed German medical journals. The first was conducted by Curt Diehm, M.D., at the University of Heidelberg Medical Clinic Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. Diehm studied 45 patients who had intermittent claudication, a condition in which impaired circulation causes the individual to develop pain in the legs upon walking. About half of the patients were treated with EDTA and the rest received Bencyclan, a bloodthinning agent. In addition to determining the effect of each agent on the ability to perform pain-free walking exercises, Diehm measured the progress of the disease process in each patient during the four-week treatment period and three months after treatment was stopped. Statistical evaluation of the results after the blinding code was broken showed that patients in both groups had equally increased ability to perform pain-free walking exercises and that treatment with EDTA did not result in any change in the patients' blood flow, red cell viscosity, red-cell aggregation, or triglyceride and cholesterol levels. Diehm also concluded that the improvements in walking measurements in both groups were directly related to his success in convincing them of his strong interest in their well being and his ability to motivate them to make an effort to perform greater activity.

    In the second trial, R. Hopf, a cardiologist at the University of Frankfurt, tested chelation in patients with coronary heart disease Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. In this trial, 16 patients with angiographic evidence of coronary heart disease were randomized and divided into an EDTA-treated and an untreated group. Before treatment, the treated group averaged 2.1 significantly narrowed coronary arteries, while the untreated group averaged 2.6. Patients were infused with 500 ml of either the EDTA solution or dilute salt water (a placebo) at three-day intervals for a total of 20 infusions. On completion of the trial, patients in both groups said they felt better and performed weightlifting tests equally well. However, comparison of both groups before and after treatment, using angiography and other tests, indicated no improvement in blood flow through the patients' coronary arteries and a slight progression of their atherosclerosis. Hopf concluded that chelation had no effect on diseased coronary arteries.

    This is an excerpt from a 1996 flyer from an osteopathic physician whose radio advertisements invite people who have been advised to have coronary bypass surgery to consult him first. There is no published scientific evidence that chelation therapy can render bypass surgery unnecessary or can help people with any of the conditions listed in the ad. The experience to which the ad refers is not a trustworthy substitute for scientific testing. People with coronary artery disease who need bypass surgery and choose chelation instead place themselves at great risk.

    Dubious Safety

    Proponents also claim that chelation has been demonstrated to be safe. In Bypassing Bypass, Cranton declares that six million chelation treatments have been given safely over the last forty years. In his textbook, however, he warns of the seriousness of the possible side effects and advises that prospective patients be given a complete physical examination and be tested to rule out hypocalcemia, kidney impairment, allergic conditions (sensitivity to components of the EDTA infusion fluids), hypoglycemia, blood-clotting problems, congestive heart failure, liver impairment, and tuberculosis.

    Other observers have reported cases of hypocalcemia leading to cardiac arrhythmias and tetany; kidney damage; decreased blood clotting ability with abnormal bleeding; thrombophlebitis and embolism; hypoglycemia and insulin shock; severe vasculitis and autoimmune related hemolytic anemia, dermatitis with pruritus and generalized eczema; and extensive clumping of platelets in the blood of some patients with atherosclerosis and other chronic diseases.

    An important theoretical consideration should also be considered. The trace metal most dramatically lost as a result of EDTA chelation is zinc. French researchers have found that 24 hours after an infusion of EDTA, the urine of human subjects contained 15 times the normal amount of zinc Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. Without replacement, the loss of this much zinc over the months during which 30 to 40 treatments are delivered will increase the potential for severe impairment of immune function, precancerous cellular mutations, loss in selective permeability of cell membranes and altered solubility of pancreatic insulin. Although proponent literature advises that supplemental zinc be administered to guard against zinc depletion, studies showing that this supplementation actually prevents depletion have not been published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature.

    Unsound Theories

    Over the past 40 years, proponents have invoked various biochemical mechanisms to justify their use of EDTA chelation. Each time critics proved that the mechanism in vogue was scientifically untenable, a new one was postulated together with new dogma.

    Proposed mechanism #1: The "roto-rooter" hypothesis (1960s-1970s). Throughout the 1960s chelation proponents claimed that the structure of arterial plaque depended on the calcium it contained. They suggested that this calcium was like the rivets in a steel structure and that removing it would cause the plaque to disintegrate, widening the affected arteries and increasing blood flow. This mechanism was compared to "roto-rooter" cleaning of a clogged household water pipe.
    Rebuttal: Plaque is an integral part of the artery wall and not a deposit on its surface. Calcium enters arterial plaque in the late stages of its enlargement. Since EDTA cannot pass through the artery cell membranes it cannot chelate the calcium there. Chelation proponents have never presented evidence that chelation therapy causes softening of hardened arteries, removes calcium from arterial plaque or causes the plaque structure to disintegrate.

    Even if a chelating substance could impact on arterial disease, there is good reason to doubt that EDTA would be an effective agent. Of all the synthetic chelating agents that have been used to bind metals in the body, EDTA is probably the least effective. Because it is water-soluble, it cannot penetrate the lipid-rich cell membranes. Because it is nonspecific, it binds the other divalent and trivalent metal ions in a mixture before it binds calcium. It is rapidly eliminated from the body, carries all bound trace metals with it, and can deplete nutritionally important trace metals.

    Proposed mechanism #2: Parathyroid hormone (PTH) and plaque decalcification (1970s-1980s). By the mid-70s the roto-rooter hypothesis had been repudiated. However, because proponents still believed that the structural integrity of arterial plaque depended on its calcium content, a new rationale was needed. In The Chelation Answer, Walker proposed that when ionic calcium was removed from serum by EDTA chelation, it was replaced by calcium from bone. This stimulated the parathyroid gland to secrete PTH, which promoted remineralization of bone. Walker alleged that the calcium for this bone remineralization was supplied through serum by "gradual transfer" of calcium from hardened arterial tissue and plaque. This, he said, softened the arteries and caused plaque to disintegrate.
    Rebuttal: Every metabolic process in our tissues depends somewhat on calcium for its activity. To ensure human survival, the neuromuscular system must be protected by preventing a loss of calcium from the soft tissues. The calcium in blood plasma is strictly maintained between 9.0 and 11.0 mg per 100 ml in order to replenish any calcium that might be lost from soft tissues. In adult humans, the principal calcium storage depots are the bones, which contain over 99% (1,300 grams) of the calcium in the body. The rest is contained in the soft tissues (0.6%, 7 grams), plasma (0.03%, 350 mg), and extravascular fluids (0.07%, 700 mg). The homeostatic mechanism by which the plasma calcium level is maintained involves the action of PTH, and 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D3. These hormones regulate absorption of calcium from the gut, reabsorption in the kidney tubules, and mobilization from the bone.

    The remineralization of bone uses calcium drawn from the plasma. A fall in plasma calcium triggers secretion of extra PTH, increases calcium reabsorption in the kidney tubules and synthesis by kidney tissue of 1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D3, which causes increased calcium absorption from the gut. These PTH actions on the kidney and the gut maintain plasma calcium levels while bone remineralization takes place.

    Calcium in the soft tissues is kept from reaching toxic concentrations (too high or too low ) by an exchange reaction with divalent ions in the extracellular fluid. There is no normal physiological mechanism by which the soft tissues supply calcium for bone remineralization, and there is no homeostatic process that can selectively direct decalcification of hardened arteries while leaving normal tissues untouched.

    Proposed mechanism #3: EDTA chelation blocks production of free radicals involved in a chain of reactions that result in atherosclerosis. (1980s to present). By the early 1980s, the extensive knowledge amassed by scientists about what "free radicals" were, how they were generated, and what damage they might do in the body allowed Cranton to posit the "current dogma" in the 1990 edition of Bypassing Bypass.
    According to Cranton, free radicals are produced in the body by toxic metals and by abnormally placed iron and copper that are released into the local blood stream when blood clots in occluded arteries. These metals generate free radicals, which oxidize fatty acids to lipid peroxides, which then generate new free radicals themselves. This chain of oxidation reactions causes arterial cell-membrane damage and plaque formation. When EDTA binds iron, it becomes chemically unreactive and stops catalyzing the production of the free radicals. Thus, EDTA chelation curbs the pathological processes that cause atheromas (plaque) by greatly reducing the amount of free radicals generated in the atherosclerotic blood vessels.

    Rebuttal: Ionic iron has two electrons in its outermost or N shell and 14 electrons in its M shell. This configuration gives ionic iron the distinct characteristic of being able to accept three pairs of electrons from other ions. As long as one pair of these electrons is left unbound, ionic iron remains highly reactive.

    When iron is dissolved in water at a pH of 7.0 or more, its three pairs of electrons will be bound to three OH groups of the water. The resulting ferric hydroxide is insoluble and precipitates. In contrast, when ionic iron is chelated with EDTA, only two of the three pairs of available electrons are bound. The binding of just two of the three pairs of electrons allows the iron to exist in physiological solutions (at pH 7) in a soluble yet stable form. More importantly, since the EDTA only forms bonds with two of the three pairs of electrons, it allows the remaining pair to be fully involved in oxidation reactions that generate free radicals. Therefore, if EDTA chelates ionic iron, it does not stop it from generating free radicals. Rather, EDTA chelation keeps iron dissolved in the blood stream for extended periods and magnifies the extent to which it catalyzes production of tissue-damaging free radicals.

    Under normal circumstances most of the iron in the body is bound to proteins and is not able to generate free radicals. As a result, the few free radicals that are generated by ionic iron are fully dealt with by existing antioxidant enzyme systems. However, when something causes the release of iron from these protein complexes, the amount of ionic iron is markedly increased and the potential for free-radical production is exacerbated. High doses of vitamin C increase the amount of ionic iron in the circulation by promoting its release from transferrin (the iron-transport protein) and from ferritin (the iron-storage protein), and by increasing the absorption of dietary iron from the gut. Since EDTA infusion solutions include megadoses of vitamin C, the possibility exists that chelation therapy will increase the formation of free radicals that cause tissue damage!

    Proposed mechanism #4: Chelation therapy prevents mutations of cells that become an atheroma. Atheromas are benign tumors that arise from mutated artery cells. Artery cells mutate when their DNA is damaged by free radicals. When these cells grow, they become a benign tumor called an atheroma (plaque).
    Rebuttal: Arterial atheromas are not derived from mutant cells but from events that cause damage and processes that attempt repair. Low-density lipoproteins (LDL) in the plasma cross the endothelial cell layer of the artery at a point where an injury has occurred and are deposited in the subendothelial layer. Monocytes are attracted to the injured area and migrate between the endothelial cells to the subendothelial layers. These monocytes are converted to macrophages which engulf the LDL and become the foam cells or "the fatty streak." The fibrous plaque-the accumulation of foam cells ruptures the endothelial cell layer causing platelets to aggregate at the site. Platelet growth factor is released, stimulating smooth muscle cell proliferation and the deposition of more LDL. Smooth muscle cells produce collagen and form a fibrous, collagen-rich cap over the site (plaque). At this stage the plaque contains cholesterol, lipid particles, and the debris from dead cells . If this cap is dislodged, there is a rapid repetition of the above steps and the plaque enlarges. The atheroma-smooth muscle cell proliferation results in an infiltration into the intima of the arterial wall. As the atheroma enlarges, the small blood vessels surrounding it rupture and bleed, causing calcification inside the atheroma. As the atheroma continues to enlarge, it causes narrowing of the artery.

    The Phantom Study
    In October 1989, chelation therapy was listed as one of "The Top Ten Health Frauds" in an article in FDA Consumer. The article reported that both the FDA and the American Heart Association have said that there is no scientific evidence that chelation therapy is effective against cardiovascular disease. Three issues later, a letter from a proponent complained that the listing was inappropriate because the FDA had approved the protocol of a clinical trial that was underway. The letter was followed by "an apology for the error," which stated that the editor had not been aware that chelation therapy had been approved for a study. The editor's note also quoted an FDA official who said that the study should "unequivocally answer at least several questions related to the utility of chelation therapy in . . . intermittent claudication."
    The FDA should not have backed down because mere approval for a clinical trial is not proof that method works. Nevertheless, for several years, proponents continued to trumpet the existence of the study as evidence that their claims were justified. The study, however, has not been completed. According to proponents, a drug company that was involved in funding the study changed its mind, leaving them without the resources to complete it. Even if the study had been completed and had demonstrated benefit in patients with intermittent claudication, it would not have proven that chelation is safe or effective for anything else.

    In 1992, a group of cardiovascular surgeons in Denmark published results of a double-blinded, randomized, placebo-controlled study of EDTA treatment for severe intermittent claudication Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. A total of 153 patients in two groups received 20 infusions of EDTA or a placebo for 5 to 9 weeks, in a clinical protocol duplicating the conditions used by Olszewer and Carter in 1990. The changes seen in pain-free and maximal walking distances were similar for the EDTA-treated and the placebo group, and there were no long-term therapeutic effects noted in 3-month and 6-month follow-ups. These investigators concluded that chelation was not effective against intermittent claudication.

    Summary and Conclusions
    Chelation therapists state they have administered millions of EDTA treatments to hundreds of thousands of patients over the past 40 years. Protagonist publications contain their claims of numerous clinical successes and speculations couched in modern scientific terms, seeking to explain how chelation therapy could work. Since there is no evidence showing the treatment has modified the disease process, it is clear that the "benefits" being described are the result of the compassionate attention paid to the problems of the patient and to the encouragement given them to cope with their symptoms, and/or to changes in patients' lifestyle, the same ones recommended by scientific practitioners

    If chelation therapists practiced in a scientific manner, their publications would show an interest in obtaining objective proof that chelation could alter the progress of the atherosclerosis, that occluded blood vessels could be cleared, that plaque deposits could be reduced, and that hardened arteries could be "softened." Their data would include carefully documented case reports with long-term follow-up, comparisons of angiograms or ultrasound tests before and after chelation, and data from autopsies of former patients. But chelationists have published no such data. The few well-designed studies that have addressed the efficacy of chelation for atherosclerotic diseases have been carried out by "establishment " medical scientists. Without exception, these found no evidence that chelation worked.

    Based on numerous reviews of the world's medical literature, these same conclusions have been reached by the FDA, the FTC, National Institutes of Health, National Research Council, California Medical Society, American Medical Association, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, American Heart Association, American College of Physicians, American Academy of Family Physicians, American Society for Clinical Pharmacology Therapeutics, American College of Cardiology, and American Osteopathic Association.

    Notwithstanding claims to the contrary, the chelation "establishment" is not being victimized by a prejudiced and arrogant medical orthodoxy, but by its own unwillingness to mount a rigorous, placebo-controlled, double-blind clinical trial and stand by the results.

    About the Author
    Dr. Green is a biochemist who did cancer research at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center for 23 years. He consults on scientific methodology and has a special interest in unproven methods. He can be reached at (212) 957-8029.

    Update by Stephen Barrett, M.D.
    In 1998, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission charged that ACAM's Web site and a brochure had made false or unsubstantiated claims that:

    "Chelation therapy is a safe, effective and relatively inexpensive treatment to restore blood flow in victims of atherosclerosis without surgery."
    "EDTA improves calcium and cholesterol metabolism by eliminating metallic catalysts which cause damage to cell membranes by producing oxygen free radicals. Free radical pathology is now believed by many scientists to be an important contributing cause of atherosclerosis, cancer, diabetes and other diseases of aging. EDTA helps to prevent the production of harmful free radicals."
    "Chelation therapy is used to reverse symptoms of hardening of the arteries, also known as atherosclerosis or arteriosclerosis."
    "Every single study of the use of chelation therapy for atherosclerosis which has ever been published, without exception, has described an improvement in blood flow and symptoms."
    "Chelation therapy promotes health by correcting the major underlying cause of arterial blockage. Damaging oxygen free radicals are increased by the presence of metallic elements and act as a chronic irritant to blood vessel walls and cell membranes. EDTA removes those metallic irritants, allowing leaky and damaged cell walls to heal. Plaques smooth over and shrink, allowing more blood to pass. Arterial walls become softer and more pliable, allowing easier expansion. Scientific studies have proven that blood flow increases after chelation therapy."
    "Chelation therapy is an office treatment which improves blood flow throughout the entire vascular system . . .."The reader is advised that varying and even conflicting views are held by other segments of the medical profession. . . . This information represents the current opinion of independent physician consultants to ACAM at the time of publication."
    In December 1998, the FTC announced that it had secured a consent agreement barring ACAM from making unsubstantiated advertising claims that chelation therapy is effective against atherosclerosis or any other disease of the circulatory system.

    In 2001, researchers at the University of Calgary reported that cardiac patients receiving chelation therapy fared no better than those who received placebo treatment. The patients were randomly assigned to get intravenous infusions twice weekly for 15 weeks and monthly treatments for 12 more weeks. Thirty-nine patients in each group completed the 27-week protocol and were followed for about six more months. The chelation and placebo groups showed no difference in exercise capacity or feelings of well-being, but both groups increased their ability to walk on a treadmill by an average of one minute Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. Edzard Ernst, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of complementary medicine who has closely examined published reports on chelation therapy, responded to the report with this comment:

    The present study is of immense importance. The authors screened a huge number of patients to eventually include 84 in the trial. The trial was conducted carefully and with appropriate endpoints. The results show significant improvements in both groups. Imagine this had been an uncontrolled study: its results would have been celebrated by the 'chelation lobby' as a proof of efficacy! One now also understands the strikingly discrepant results of controlled and uncontrolled trials Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs. Luckily, in this trial, we have a placebo control group. The group comparisons yield no significant differences. Perhaps there was a type II error? The answer is no: the authors have done their homework well and did include a proper power calculation. I am therefore confident to concede that this was a definitive study and that chelation does not benefit heart patients beyond the placebo effect. Given its costs and risks, it should therefore be banned from the therapeutic repertoire of CAM Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs.

    The National Council Against Health Fraud believes that chelation therapy is unethical and should be banned and that chelation therapy of autistic children should be considered child abuse. I agree.

    For Additional Information
    The Pharmacology of Chelation Therapy
    EDTA Chelation Therapy for Atherosclerosis and Degenerative Diseases: Implausibility and Paradoxical Oxidant Effects
    Chelation Therapy and Insurance Fraud
    National Council Against Health Fraud Policy Statement on Chelation Therapy
    Questions and Answers about Chelation Therapy (American Heart Association)
    American Journal of Medical Science 230:654-666, 1956.
    Kitchell JR and others. Treatment of coronary artery disease. American Journal of Cardiology 11:501-506, 1963.
    Zeit. Deutsch Herzstiftung. Vol 10, July 1986.
    Zeit. f. Kardiology, 76, #2, 1987.
    Allain P and others. Effects of an EDTA infusion on the urinary elimination of several elements in healthy subjects. British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology 31:347-349, 1991.
    Guldager B and others. EDTA treatment of intermittent claudication: A double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Journal of Internal Medicine 231:261-267, 1992.
    Knudson ML and others. Chelation therapy for ischemic heart disease: a randomized, controlled trial. JAMA 287:481-486, 2002.
    Ernst E. Chelation therapy for coronary heart disease: An overview of all clinical investigations. American Heart Journal 140:139-141, 2000.
    Ernst J. Commentary. Chelation therapy does not benefit heart patients. Focus on Alternative and Complementary Therapies 7153, 2002.
    This page was revised on April 8, 2006.


    <br /><br />This was probably more information that people wanted.<br /><br />--

    My Profile [/URL" target="_blank">

    [http://This message has been edited by dtoce (edited Jun-13-2007).|http://This message has been edited by dtoce (edited Jun-13-2007).]

  • rochrunner Legend 974 posts since
    Aug 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    36. Jun 13, 2007 12:15 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    Vista, I wish you the best but hope that you are careful and stay away from any of the "junk medecine" that is out there. I spotted the following from the list of "benefits" of that EDTA chelation medication on their web site:

    Help Increase Energey Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs Levels
    Help Improve Memory & Mental Alterness Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    I consider an amateurish-looking web site as one possible danger signal. But keep us posted on what you decide to do.


    - Runnin' in Rochester

    Rochrunner[/URL" target="_blank">

  • vista129 Legend 800 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    37. Jun 13, 2007 12:25 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    This is actually quite funny.   I had JUST read the articles from Larry's suggestion and clicked it off, then decided to go back to the web site.   When I did, dtoce had posted THE VERY SAME ARTICLE, so I thought I must have somehow cut and pasted it over here.   

    Anyway, that is the type of stuff I was hunting for. Thanks for the input. I knew this would be a fun topic.

    I will keep you posted. Any other thoughts are welcome.


    vista129[/URL" target="_blank">

  • predawnrunner Legend 297 posts since
    Oct 17, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    38. Jun 13, 2007 12:34 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    sorry that vista129 has no definitive information.  It's hard to make and adjust to a plan if you don't know what you're dealing with.

    Early run, late posting. I didn't have time to do anything but plug in my Garmin, scribble down the stats and rush through the rest of the morning routine before

    Anyhoo -
    8.0 miles with 3 miles at LT

    2 miles warm-up: 10:10, 10:06
    3 miles LT: 8:44, 9:01(up-hilly), 8:47
    1 mile recovery: 10:27
    2 miles easy: 9:58, 9:49


    Predawnrunner[/URL" target="_blank">, aka mrs W.R.F. Beer

  • Sans Souci027 Legend 1,203 posts since
    Sep 9, 2005
    Currently Being Moderated
    39. Dec 23, 2007 2:09 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    Vista, I agree with Larry's recommendation:  Listen to the good doctors.
    Dr. D. is always so kind to jump in on these discussions, but I'd like to know how your running is going too. Ready for Mt. W?
    Speaking of which ... where's ThunderBolter? It's like days without sunshine. !|src=|border=0!
    Where is Meg? And winejunky, how are you coming along? Is Dark Horse in San Diego, or is he offering advice on an independent Kosovo, which seems to be in the news again?
    Twocat, if you hate the TM, what's a little rain?    Karl enjoyed it.
    Jura, hope your parents are enjoying their visit.

    Always interesting discussion about PF. I flip-flop (heh) on what's best AFA the shoe v barefoot issue. Right now I tend to think support is best. However, if the recommendation is to flex and stretch the fascia, isn't that the effect of going barefoot?

    I knew I had early PF symptoms before I ran Boston, but I wonder why it decided to really "yoink" at around 22 miles.

    7.53 miles @ 8:29 - hilly little run with wind gusts (grrr)



    , what's your 8-wk plan leading up to Skagit? I'm happy to email you my last 8 wks of Boston training. Maybe consider starting a thread and get some input from those in the know (?)

    [http://This message has been edited by Sans Souci (edited Jun-13-2007).|http://This message has been edited by Sans Souci (edited Jun-13-2007).]

  • tomwhite Legend 2,011 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    40. Jun 13, 2007 1:26 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    ......thanks for the info dtoce//........always know the Sources..

  • dtoce Legend 383 posts since
    Nov 10, 2003
    Currently Being Moderated
    41. Dec 23, 2007 2:09 AM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs


    Originally posted by Sans Souci:

    Dr. D. is always so kind to jump in on these discussions, but I'd like to know how your running is going too. Ready for Mt. W?
    [http://This message has been edited by Sans Souci (edited Jun-13-2007).|http://This message has been edited by Sans Souci (edited Jun-13-2007).]


    San Soucalina (so shy),

    I'm holding my own with my running but my life has been inordinately busy of late. Months of coaching little league has caused a time crunch on my running. I'm not as prepared for the mountain as I'd like, but it is what it is.

    I can't wait to experience it.

    Thanks for asking.

    BTW-where IS Thunderbolter?!?[/URL" target="_blank">

  • Sans Souci027 Legend 1,203 posts since
    Sep 9, 2005
    Currently Being Moderated
    42. Jun 13, 2007 2:06 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    You'll smoke it.  I just know it.

    Oh, and I understand you're not prepared to buy MustangSally's house, but, hmm, er, do you like the general area?  Maybe a little further north perhaps?

    There's half a house that came up for sale only yesterday, and the vendor is a keen runner (though purportedly a tad shy). Seems there was some unhappiness with a reference to ear-pulling or something.

    Oh, and there's a Mt. Washington race[/URL" target="_blank"> not far away. !|src=|border=0!


  • hally Legend 1,194 posts since
    Aug 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    43. Jun 13, 2007 2:16 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    snnnoooooooorrre............argghhh eeek!!! sorry fell asleep trying to read that medical stuff. Hey Lou, you were saying you were having insomnia?  !|src=|border=0!

    J/K Dale, it's so neat that we have a bonafide expert around here even if you've been busy coaching the kids (how many ear drums did you burst screaming them into home plate), always there lurking in the background ready to help us out round here. GL on the mountain and have a GRETA time.

    Vista, keeping good thoughts that you and your Dr's will figure out what is the best course of action for you.

    Now, where did that Thunderbolter get to??

  • fjordrunner Legend 306 posts since
    Jul 28, 2006
    Currently Being Moderated
    44. Jun 13, 2007 2:57 PM (in response to WillRunForBeer004)
    Re: Wed Jun 13 Boomer Runs

    4 more miles to bring the year's total to a nice round 555.5 miles.

    perfect weather, about 72 and a breeze. slow one today, with DH and pelle. we came home to see either a cougar or a coyote in our yard. probably the latter, but still followed the run with TM river dip - pelle and DH swam, i dipped to the knees three times. brrrrrrrrrr! though not as cold as with the snow runoff a few weeks ago.

    greta runs to all,


    susan[/URL" target="_blank">

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