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4152 Views 23 Replies Latest reply: Jul 6, 2012 2:33 PM by Frank_B Go to original post 1 2 Previous Next
  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    15. Jul 5, 2012 7:44 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Manny,

     

    In my original response I was hoping to differentiate Regular Season--where it is likely one team's designated parent will keep the books--and Tournament Play--where the TD has THE official scorer.  So while it is everyone's experience that working with someone "slightly" outside the dugout might occur, I guess some District got anal about it during LLWS.

     

    My point was that only the three designated coaches can approach the offical scorer for information (pitch count, awareness of subs, pitching changes, etc).  That's an easy one to enforce.  And their requests are more than reasonable.

     

    Odd story:  In 2011, I did the VA State 9-10 tournament.  We had a case where the VT wanted to pull a pitcher before he exceeded 20 pitches.  The offical scorer had 21!  EVERYBODY ELSE (in the stands, for instance) had 19!  VT Manager wanted to protest.  I remined him that before the game we briefed that the official scorer's table has the "official" stuff--for better or worse.  Now, I guess I felt bad to the guy, but it was not the umpire's job to worry about it.  (But guess who was in everybody's crosshairs!)

     

    No way would I require the benches to keep a book; they chose to do it to watch out for MPR violations, BOO, etc.  But absolutely none of that is official.  Both managers should get a copy of their own line up and the other team's line up at the plate conference; and so they have all the tools necessary to watch for a third-world situation.

     

    One might also note that at the LLWS in W-Port, perhaps at some Regionals, and even State tournaments, the dugouts are darned well isolated from the fans.  So this issue is less likely to happen in the first place.  (Then, there are cell phones, but that's another discussion for another time.)

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Echo Rookie 7 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    16. Jul 5, 2012 9:00 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    You are right Manny; a dad just outside the dugout keeping score probable isn’t a big advantage. But consider a dad out in center reading signs or, dad 2 next to opposition dugout listening in.  Realistic there is very little that can be done.  Because there is no rule that prevents fans, extra coaches from talking INTO the dugout or field.

     

    I also make a distinction between regular season and tournament.  For me regular season is much more casual. I strive for and hope we achieve a feeling of community.  So yes there is more chatting and passing of energy drinks.  Comes tournament time it becomes more formal, more pomp and circumstance.

     

    I also agree some of Little Leagues rules are a bit silly and there are times I feel really OOO.  When I had to call outs for missed bases with no appeal in high school a few years ago I thought that was dumb. 

     

    My point is I have to work the way my association or district wants or I don’t do games.  I will do games their way until I can’t abide by the way they want things done.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    17. Jul 6, 2012 5:21 AM (in response to Echo)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Echo wrote:

     

    You are right Manny; a dad just outside the dugout keeping score probable isn’t a big advantage. But consider a dad out in center reading signs or, dad 2 next to opposition dugout listening in.  Realistic there is very little that can be done.


    What you're describing is essentially coaching.  That is something our DA is adamant to stop when it happens.


    In our district there were two or three leagues that were notorious for placing dads around the fences.  Those dads--some of them wearing the same shirts as the manager and coaches--would coach individual players, moving them around like chess pieces.  And in the days when LL allowed only two adults on the field based upon roster sizes, one of those dads would be right behind the fence next to the kid base coach, and he, not the kid, would be coaching the base runners.  As a TD, I would walk around the field and send those dads back into the bleachers, telling them if they really wanted to coach, they would have to do so from the dugout by replacing one of the coaches in there.  Eventually, our DA put a stop to it by informing the managers at the tournament meeting to knock it off.

     

    But keeping a score book is not coaching, IMHO.  It's just, well, scoring.

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    18. Jul 6, 2012 5:36 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Frank_B wrote:

     

    We had a similiar local situation, during T-play, 2 years ago. In that case the scorebook was being carried and maintained in a coaches box.  ER ruled no can do in an email back to me at that time.

     

    Frank!

     

    So, a coach can't keep the score book in the base coach's box.  That means the lone adult in the dugout has to do it, per ER mandate.  But the lone adult is supposed to stay in the dugout to supervise safety and help with game flow.  How does he maintain that supervision when he's checking the book to verify pitch counts and the like?  What's more important, in ER's mind?  The safety of the kids in the dugout, or the accuracy of the book being maintained by the coach in the dugout?  It sounds to me like the latter.

     

    It continues to amaze me how the powers-that-be in Regional Centers and in Williamsport can take a kids game and turn it into such a serious ordeal.  I've umpired in a lot of high-level games for other organizations that are similar to LL's tournaments, and those sanctioning bodies don't have anywhere near the nitnoid rules that really don't affect play on the field.  They don't limit the number of adults in the dugout.  They don't care that parents talk to the kids by the fence.  They don't require score books be kept by coaches.  They understand the meaning of the words "youth" and "amateur" and "game".

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    19. Jul 6, 2012 6:50 AM (in response to Manny_A)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    Points well taken Manny.....but two points in rebuttal.

     

    1)---Yes---while one adult in the dugout is mandated and does in fact occur; but more often than not, there are TWO adults in the the dugout or dugout opening on offense;  with one of the allowed three adults in a coaches box.  On defense ALL three adults must be in the dugout---OR, at the dugout opening.

    That "one adult in the dugout" rule, altho applying when the full complement of three adults allowed are present; is most applicable when one or more adults of the allowed three are a no-show at any given game.

     

    2)---A point made by ER, back to me, that I did not heretofore mention; a point I totally agree with... re SAFETY!

          A coach maintaining a scorebook in a coaches box is putting himself/herself in harm's way when paying more attention/focused looking down on  the scorebook as opposed to watching the action on the field, particularly as to errant thrown balls by infielders between innings----and errant  thrown balls within the infield celebrating a strikeout.

     

    The same diversion you cited, maintaining a scorebook in the dugout, as to the one adult supervising kids supposedly to insure the safety of the players  in the dugout, that diversion would also apply to a coach in a coaches box----but in the coach's case---its his/her (own) safety that's being comprimised!

     

    I wish your last sentence in the post above also included the word "safety."

    Particularly with youth ball where the adage...."safety is our top priority" or words to that effect, are commonly noted---verbally and in writing!

     

    Frank!

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    20. Jul 6, 2012 11:26 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    1)---Yes---while one adult in the dugout is mandated and does in fact occur; but more often than not, there are TWO adults in the the dugout or dugout opening on offense;

     

    Perhaps in your neck of the woods. I don't believe I have ever seen a game locally, at any level from Majors through Seniors, in-house or district all-star in which a team had three adults but put a player out as a base coach.

     

    On your second point, I don't think Manny disagrees with that, he is only saying that, for half of the game each of the three adults need to give their full attention to the game/players, so who is left to keep score?

     

    I will mention one more time that when the number of adults allowed was increased from 2 to 3, this was for the express purpose of bringing the book into the dugout. But then LL forgot about that and increased the allowed number of adult base coaches from 1 to 2. If LL really wants to have the book in the dugout and allows two adult base coaches, then they should allow a fourth adult in the dugout (and require at least two adults in the dugout at all times - hehe). Or have a player do the book while on offense - double hehe.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    21. Jul 6, 2012 12:43 PM (in response to Mark__P)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    I can't speak for your "neck of the woods"---but I CAN speak for mine---- players, in my district play, have been used in a coach box; more so @1st base

    I can also speak for LLWS TV games I and others watched coming from Williamsport and Regional where players have worked the 1st base coaches box.

     

    Indeed---in two specific instances I recall,----a manager had called time and inserted his (player) 1st base coach as an SPR or straight out Pinch-Runner....with the players coming off the base replacing the player in the 1st base coaches box.

     

    If you are speaking for Manny agreeing with my point #2---I rest my case!        triple hehe!

     

    As far as LL Inc. allowing two adult base coaches, going back many years they allowed one--BUT---allowed local leagues to use two adults as an adopted option (local rule)--before the games began. Try the 2003 rulebook, Rule 4.05.

     

    As far as LL Inc. allowing 2 or 3 adults in T-play--and  three "for the express purpose of bringing the book into the dugout"---I don't think so. First of all, allowing only two adults was a "penalty" for rostering less than 12 players; while rosters with 13 or more were allowed three adults. [That has  now been replaced with the 2012 tournament MPR requirements.]

     

    And if you look at the time line where two adults were allowed as base coaches, versus when Wiliamsport went into their 2 or 3 adults being allowed in T-play-----you will find that two adult base coaches came first---and had nothing to do with the "express purpose of bringing the book into the dugout"----at least not in writing; but tacitly encouraged making it happen.

    quadruple hehe!!

     

    Frank!

  • Mark__P Pro 112 posts since
    Jun 26, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    22. Jul 6, 2012 12:52 PM (in response to Frank_B)
    Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    The transition from two adults allowed to three adults allowed in regular season play happened _way_ before the tournament roster size penalty.

     

    The order of events was:

    1. Two adults allowed, one could be a base coach, the other stayed in the dugout.

    2. Three adults allowed, one could be a base coach, the other two stayed in the dugout

           (this change was made to bring the scorekeeper into the dugout)

    3. Two adult base coaches allowed

           (by now people had forgotten about bringing the scorekeeper into the dugout and wondered why it was necessary to have two adults in the dugout while on offense)

    4. MPR introduced into tournament play (this might have come before #3, I can't quite remember)

    5. Restriction to two adults for teams with fewer than 13 players

    6. MPR increase for teams with fewer than 13 players.

    7. Today

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Jul 6, 2012 2:33 PM (in response to Mark__P)
    Re: Dad Scorebook outside the dugout

    "The transition from two adults allowed to three adults allowed in REGULAR SEASON PLAY happened way before_way_before the tournament roster size penalty."     my caps!

     

    And what year was that?  I have "never" in regular season play!! Three adults always, yes!  at least going back my 45+ years in LL.

     

    MPR was alive and well in tournament play  2003----"three(3) consecutive defensive outs, OR, one(1) at bat.  Changes to T- MPR came later---and often, based on rosters, and number of players available to start a game.

     

    Frank!

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