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47829 Views 649 Replies Latest reply: Aug 17, 2011 4:05 PM by sinarapan Go to original post 1 ... 40 41 42 43 44 Previous Next
  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by DavidD:


    I'm wondering how people define complex carbs? And are simple carbs the problem?


     



    Carbs that not only stimulate peristalsis, but also have their own interests, emotions, and insanities.

  • DavidD063 Rookie 360 posts since
    Jan 25, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

    Carbs that not only stimulate peristalsis, but also have their own interests, emotions, and insanities.


     



    Jimmy, that's way too complex. You've been reading the running rags, yes?

    I didn't mean to appear like I was asking a loaded question, just curious what people thought. It's a question I ask on day 1 of my post grad biochem course (clinical nutrition). Almost no one has the answer. The reason is there's so much hype out there (ads especially, and all those phony articles in magazines that appear real but really originate with advertisers).

    It's actually simple: the carbs that reduce fat burning the most are those that are refined.

    The 'complex' and 'simple' carb explanation is not used because it's confusing. For example, complex carbs include all refined flour products (wheat, rye, etc.), white sugar, maple syrup, and other highly processed foods (even most 'whole wheat' bread is mostly white flour). These carbs reduce fat burning the most.

    Simple carbs include fruits, honey, lentils and vegetables (except potatoes and unripe bananas which are a complex carb).

    Generally, the complex carbs are the high glycemic ones. These foods not only impair fat burning, but much of it turns to fat and is stored.

    If you want the most from your MAF training (increased speed, better health, etc.) reducing or eliminating all refined carbs will help as much as finding your optimal MAF training heart rate.

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    I've always just considered whole grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, and high-fiber cereal, bread and pasta made with exclusively 100% whole grain as my complex carbs. I'm sure some within these categories stimulate the flow of insulin more than others, but nothing like the Twinkie and White Bread category. I never use table sugar, and if I use maple syrup, I use no more than a teaspoon (snortedkeeps the nostrils moist during the dry winter). I wasn't joking about the peristalsis. Eating the way I do keeps me more regular than Old Faithful. I'm getting 60-70 grams of fiber, which mentally challenges digestion and keeps the sugar levels a bit more even.<br />On my occasional binge of cookies, I can feel the knock on my system.<br /><br />When I look back to my first marathon, I remember being a bit disappointed by my 4:14. I really thought I was in better shape. I wasn't Maffing, but I did do Hadd, and a lot of aerobic miles. The one thing I did different that day was eat 4 pancakes with syrup an hour before the race. I didn't feel right from the start. Not saying that was the complete cause of the 5 mile death march I experienced, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have done that. I ate white french toast an hour before the second marathon one as well. It was the only time I ever cramped in a race (abdomenpainful), and also hit the wall in that one, though a little later than the first marathon (mile 23). The next four marathons I knew what I know now and didn't eat closer than four hours before.

    Reading your post about what you see on the TM tests with people who eat carbs right before is very good information. Thank you, Dave.

    --Jimmy

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    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

  • streeetch Rookie 27 posts since
    Sep 16, 2006

    quote:


    Originally posted by jjwaverly42:


    When I look back to my first marathon, I remember being a bit disappointed by my 4:14. I really thought I was in better shape. I wasn't Maffing, but I did do Hadd, and a lot of aerobic miles. The one thing I did different that day was eat 4 pancakes with syrup an hour before the race. I didn't feel right from the start. Not saying that was the complete cause of the 5 mile death march I experienced, but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't have done that. I ate white french toast an hour before the second marathon one as well. It was the only time I ever cramped in a race (abdomen--painful), and also hit the wall in that one, though a little later than the first marathon (mile 23). The next four marathons I knew what I know now and didn't eat closer than four hours before.


     



    While your thinking back, could you elaborate on your nutrition during your marathons. Do you feel that it was a contributing factor in your hitting the wall? How has it changed from early on till now?

    I didn't eat pancakes prior to my first but the results were similar (death march).

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by streeetch:

    While your thinking back, could you elaborate on your nutrition during your marathons. Do you feel that it was a contributing factor in your hitting the wall? How has it changed from early on till now?

    I didn't eat pancakes prior to my first but the results were similar (death march).


     



    In all marathons I've taken 4 GU's, though in the last 4, not until 45 minutes into the race. I'll do mostly water with a little sports drink provided by the race. The first two marathons weren't failures by any means. I improved by 29 minutes from the first to the second, which I attribute to more time as a runner, and it was cooler. The first got into the 70's. Knowing what I know now, I would say the pancakes contributed to hitting the wall so early. I hit it later in my second, but still did. The last three miles were very tough. I haven't experienced that since. I get tired as anyone would but pretty much maintain pace until the end, and sometimes get faster. I don't run out of glyco.


    --Jimmy

    @@@@[/URL" target="_blank">
    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    To add, I've been eating the same way as I mentioned in that early post for many years. So, that has not been a factor in terms of comparing my race performances. WHEN I eat is.

    --Jimmy

  • streeetch Rookie 27 posts since
    Sep 16, 2006

    quote:


    Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

    In all marathons I've taken 4 GU's, though in the last 4, not until 45 minutes into the race. I'll do mostly water with a little sports drink provided by the race. The first two marathons weren't failures by any means. I improved by 29 minutes from the first to the second, which I attribute to more time as a runner, and it was cooler. The first got into the 70's. Knowing what I know now, I would say the pancakes contributed to hitting the wall so early. I hit it later in my second, but still did. The last three miles were very tough. I haven't experienced that since. I get tired as anyone would but pretty much maintain pace until the end, and sometimes get faster. I don't run out of glyco.


    --Jimmy

    @@@@[/URL" target="_blank">
    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">


     



    Thanks. I've been experimenting since my marathon but it's still early in the process. From what I've read online I've gotten the impression that most people think about marathon nutrition from the finish line forward (ie take in enough to finish). Ultra and tri athletes appear to think more from the start forward (ie what can i take in now so i'm ok later).

    DavidD mentioned: "If you want to see what carbs do to your fat-burning, eat pancakes or pasta before a treadmill test and look at your RQ; you'll see very little fat burning."

    Would eating at some point within the test affect the fat burning ratio? ie 30/60 minutes into a run

    Here is #19 from the FAQ. The last line is what caught me attention.

    19. Do I need to eat “low carb” to be successful at this? Is this a promotion of “low carb” eating?
    No to both. The key is to avoid carbs prior to training runs or races. Better results may be obtained by avoiding carbs during training runs, but there’s no solid evidence.

    I've order Nancy Clark's Food Guide For Marathoners.  After that I might order Maffetones Eating For Endurance.  Like I said it's still early in the process.  I tried Hammer Gel and Gatorade (not together) proir to my marathon but neither went well.  The most extreme thing I've tried since is 1/2 a Cliff Bar at mile 3 and then finishing it at mile 6 with water followed by Accelerade (mile 8 on).  No problems but it was only a 15 mile run.  As my runs get longer I'm thinking about adding Ensure into the mix.  Maybe I'm over thinking this?

  • Cashmason Pro 449 posts since
    Oct 29, 2007

    jb944 Great job on your 55 minute run.     My golf buddies will give you credit for sinking the second putt if your first one is close to the hole.   I would say 55 minutes is close enough to an hour to call you a one hour runner now.

  • jb944 Rookie 162 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    Cashmason- thanks!  But, 55 wasn't good enough for me - I just did my first one hour run!  Any comments on my other questions?  I haven't heard from anyone else on here.

  • Hi All,

    Just checking in...

    What can I say; things are going great with my maff training. As a reminder, I'm training for IM Switzerland next year. I've been doing maff for about 13 weeks now.

    Firstly, I'm probably enjoying my training more than I've ever done in my life. It's not a struggle; I'm feeling stronger, fitter, happier, and healthier. It has to be worth it just for this.

    Secondly, I'm not injured. This is a BIG thing. I almost put this first, because I was the classic yo-yo trainer; run, run lots more/faster, get injured, stop, wait, start again. I'm now doing about 5 hours on the bike (at 140) and about 4.5 hours run, plus 1.5 swimming. I do a session and think I could exactly the same the following day, but don't because that's not what the plan says, but you get the idea.

    I do wonder if 4.5 hours running is enough to get results, but perhaps the extra 5 hours on the bike at 140 compensates? I’m thinking of increasing the running by 10% per week but keeping the biking at about 5 hours over the winter.

    I've been a bit hap-hazard in my baseline/measuring so I can't exactly say that I've got faster, although I noticed on the bike that I could get a little further for a given time at 140. I did try some sort measurement on a treadmill, but gave this up as I was getting bored on the treadmill.

    I've now got myself a FR305 (what a great piece of kit this is), so it's now dead easy to capture the data. Together with MotionBased for uploading a seeing what’s-what, this has to be the best money I've spent in a long time. This isn't a plug, I've no connection with Garmin or anything, just my opinion.

    So, now I'll have something to compare against as I continue my base training phase right through the winter.

    I noticed Jesse uses MotionBased - I looked at a few of your runs; I'm still in awe at the very lowww rate for the pace you go :-)

    I also noticed that my pace ebbs and flows on different days; not quite sure why. If anybody wants to comment, I'd be glad of any feedback (user 'poulaum', http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/4561768[/URL" target="_blank"> for example). I also see the Jesse's wisdom in the trend of data as opposed to one specific test on one specific day.

    I think I've come through the boredem/embarrasment phase of maffing along. I've stuck with it and reaped some great benefits. I hope I'll be able to avoid that death march in Switzerland next year.

    If anybody has fallen off the wagon, I'd urge you to get back on - it does take mental strength to keep with it but the benefits are very real.

    I continue to lurk on the list; I don't feel compelled to opine on posts (perhaps yet) - there are many people infinitely better qualified.

    Thanks to all.

    Marc.

  • jjwaverly_42 Pro 388 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    quote:


    Originally posted by jb944:

    Just thought I would check in.  Finished C25K the end of October and had never run before.  Started MAF Nov 20, although it took me 10 days to actually slow down to a ridiculously slow rate on my runs to stay below MAF.  (Please don't count this as one of my 3 allowable whines, since I may need them later!      I'm just stating the facts here.)  My walks have been below MAF since Nov 20.  So, here's the score on the one-hour walks:

    11/28 - Avg HR 127, pace 16:20
    12/6 - Avg HR 124, pace 15:19

    Not enough data on the runs yet to see a significant decrease, but I ran 55 minutes non-stop today (not much for most of you, but a major accomplishment for me since I struggled with the 60 second runs in August) and could have gone longer. Now I need to re-program my treadmill so it doesn't shut down at 60 minutes!

    I was going to do the OHR program beginning in January, but I'm almost there. Should I keep adding a bit each week, add an additional day (I'm currently running every other day), or just increase one run to a longer time each week? Or should I keep at my current mileage (about 26 miles/week of walking and running) for awhile?

    BTW, I have not given up my weight training (2-3 hours a week) due to low bone density.

    Thanks in advance for your help.




    Congrats on your awesome progress!

    Add no more than 5% per week (i.e. 5 hours this week, 5:15 the next), dispersing as you see fit, eventually creating "hard" days (higher time or mileage) followed by easy days (lower time or mileage or rest). Be careful of adding all to one day, you don't want the schedule to get lopsided.

    Keep going and may your leg bone density become like that of the powerful ostrich!


    --Jimmy

    MAF log[/URL" target="_blank">

    profile[/URL" target="_blank">

  • Forgive me MAFers, for I have sinned.

    It had been 49 days since my last high HR run.

    I snapped yesterday and didn't slow down on the hills and also ran a couple of miles during the middle of my 10 mile run at my "old" pace. HR hit 148 max, against a MAF of 140. Still came in at an Avg HR of 139 for the 10 miles.

    I have done 10 hail Mafy's and ask for forgiveness.

    Not surprisingly, my legs feel a little sore for the first time in 50 days today!

    I promise to get back on the wagon, as I'm convinced that this is the way to better fitness.

    Yours in MAfing,
    Russ

    ----



    ____

    Balancing BBQ and BQ[/URL" target="_blank">

  • quote:


    Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

    ...On my occasional binge of cookies, I can feel the knock on my system....


    Jimmy<br /><br /><a href="http://members.cox.net/jimmybrunelle/profile.html" target="_blank"> @@@@[/URL" target="_blank"><br /><a href="http://members.cox.net/jimmybrunelle/heartratephase5.html" target="_blank">MAF log[/URL" target="_blank"><br /><br /></b><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><br /><br />Kroger PB cookies from the bakery - 18 in a box, and they don't last long when I have my binge. The only thing I buy from Kroger anymore. It's a guilty pleasure as they aren't even as good as my wife can make - but she can't/won't make 18 just so that I can stuff my face.<br /><br />Another runner I've followed (www.steverunner.com) now feels fairly confident that eating protein in the morning of a race is the way to go as eating Carbs kicks your glycogen into gear. He doesn't go into the science, but is convinced that this helped him not hit wall for first marathon in about 20 tries.<br /><br /><br /><br />--



    ____

    Balancing BBQ and BQ[/URL" target="_blank">

  • Long Run Nick Amateur 277 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007

    After 7 months of MAF training/went from 40-45 mi weeks to 55-60 mile weeks. Did some great sharpening. Strong race results:10K and a 1/2 and smart tapering I stepped to the line at the Huntsville Rocket City marathon to beat my initial marathon time(3:58) there back 30 yrs ago in 1977 (34 at the time).

    Results: DNF. Only the 3rd DNF in over 400 races. Never got on track. HR was higher low 170's when in training I could run 9's comfortably at mid 150's. I MAF'd at 132 for over 1,200 miles Didn't feel right at even mile 2goal pace was 9 min miles. At 5 miles I would have stopped but hoped things would get better. 10 miles right on 9 min miles but cramping in the shouldersrarely have experienced that. A lot of effert to maintain pace. At the 1/2 still on pace but looking for emergency tentwas told it was a mile or so down the road mile 15no tentno real help. Started slowing downfinally past mile 17-- 4 guys were in lawn chairs in front of their houseI stopped and told them I was done. They thought I was joking. One of them gave me his jacket and another volunteered to get me back to my hotel at the start. I was very disappointed to say the least and would've stopped at 5 miles if someone would have offered me a ride.<br /><br />Good newsno injuries. A lot of shoulder stiffness. Rested Sunday--including 6+ hrs of driving. Went out this AM and walked a slow mile then ran 4 min/walked 1 minute. Did that for 3 more milesand almost felt like myself.

    I have honnestly felt better at the end of 50+ mile runs/races than I did early on in the marathon. I am digesting my humble pie. For a guy who has run over 31 yrs and 65,000 miles it was a run I will never forget.

    My planmore MAF and go after my goal of a sub 3:58 in February at the Tallahassee marathon.<br /><br /><br />This post in no way is to knock MAF training. It has been great for me. Got me back to running 6 days a week and allowed me to run more miles(55-60)comfortably, than I have since 1984. That for a 64 yr old is saying something.

    Thanks again to Jesse, Jimmy/Willow and my coach Aharmerwho had nothing to do with my performance on Saturday. I remainLong Run Nick  even though this was just 3/4 of a marathon. Now I have run 15 and 3/4 marathons. And 10+ultras. Nick

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