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You'll hear alot of different thoughts on this I'm sure. My experience was this, I ran 9:51 at the VT 50 in September '05, and then did 24:36 at the VT100 in July '06. Looking back on it, I can see many things that I could have done differently during the race that could have saved me the 36 minutes, and then some. One thing I did learn, is that a 50 and a 100 are two totally different animals. All of the things you do, or don't do in the first 75 miles will make or break your race. It's all about patience and damage control.
Originally posted by jholtthief:
All of the things you do, or don't do in the first 75 miles will make or break your race. It's all about patience and damage control.
I am going to keep this in mind at WS come June. Thanks.
I pulled this off the ultralist recently:
Ever wondering about the relative difficulty among the 100 mile races? Between an Ironman and 100 mile ultra? half Ironman vs. 50 milers? Here is an analysis I have done using the data collected in the RealEndurance.Com database. The percentage is benchmarked against Western State 100.
This may be a useful tool for those have a particular time goal in the 100 mile race, and want to use other event to gauge their training progress.
A general trend can be observed below:
From 50 km to 100 mile, factor is 4 to 6.
From 50 mile to 100 mile, factor is 2.5 to 3.5
Relative Event Finish Time to Western States 100 Mile Endurance Run.
Same person completed both the event in the list and WS100 in the same year.
The relative percentage is averaged over the samples.
Distance Samples Event
100m 18 161.3% Hardrock 100 Mile Endurance Run
135m 44 158.7% BadWater Ultra Marathon
100m 19 131.6% HURT Trail 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 355 119.0% Wasatch Front 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 12 112.4% Bear 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 30 111.1% Massanutten Mountain Trail 100 Mile Run
100m 240 108.7% Angeles Crest 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 4 107.5% Superior Sawtooth 100 Mile
100m 24 106.4% Cascade Crest 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 365 104.2% Leadville Trail 100 Miles Endurance Run
100m 11 101.0% San Diego 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 6189 100.0% Western States 100 Miles Endurance Run
100m 44 92.6% Rio Del Lago 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 5 90.1% SULPHUR SPRINGS 100 Mile
100m 10 87.0% Mohican Trail 100 Mile
100m 55 87.0% Arkansas Traveller 100 Mile
100m 69 87.0% Old Dominion 100 Mile One Day Run
100m 11 86.2% Javelina Jundred 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 233 84.7% Vermont Trail 100 Miles Endurance Run
100m 7 84.0% Heartland 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 5 82.6% Kettle Moraine 100 mile
100k 13 82.6% HURT Trail 100k option
100m 4 80.0% Old Dominion 100 mile Memorial Day run
100m 31 80.0% Umstead 100 Mile Endurance Run
100m 82 79.4% Rocky Raccoon 100mi
140m 4 71.9% IronMan CoeurdAlene
140m 3 71.4% IronMan Canada
100k 19 60.2% Where's Waldo 100K
200m 4 59.2% Mt Tam Double Century 200m bike ride
140m 9 57.5% IronMan Wisconsin
100k 10 51.5% Bandera 100km
140m 10 50.3% IronMan USA Lake Placid
50m 95 47.8% Zane Grey 50 Miles
100k 626 47.2% Miwok 100K
100k 11 46.1% Kettle Moraine 100 km
140m 3 44.6% IronMan Hawaii World Championship
140m 9 44.6% IronMan Florida
52m 192 39.7% Sierra Nevada Endurance Run
100k 95 39.5% Ruth Anderson 100k
50m 46 38.5% Crown King Scramble
50m 91 38.3% White River 50 Miles
50m 20 36.9% Tahoe Rim Trail 50m
50m 48 36.9% Run on the Sly 50m
50m 283 36.8% FireTrail 50 Miles
50m 212 36.5% Nugget 50 Miles Endurance Run
50m 299 36.5% Quicksilver 50 Mile
50m 12 36.1% McNaughton Park Trail Runs
50m 194 35.1% Silver State 50m
50m 324 34.6% California 50 Miles Endurance Run
50m 4 34.0% Mt Hood PCT 50m
50m 28 33.4% McKenzie River 50k
50m 1658 33.4% American River 50 Miles Endurance Run
50m 106 33.3% Cow Mountain 50 Miles
50m 23 32.7% Umstead 50 Miles Endurance Run
50m 150 32.7% Avalon 50 Miles
50k 199 32.4% Silver State 50k
50k 41 31.8% Baldy Peak 50k
50m 12 31.5% Rocky Raccon 50 Miles
35m 24 31.2% Santa Barbara 9 Trails 35 Mile Run
50m 290 30.5% Jed Smith 50m
50m 102 30.2% Helen Klein 50m
50m 15 29.0% Ruth Anderson 50m
36m 3 28.2% Haleakala Run to the Sun
50k 31 28.2% Tahoe Rim Trail 50k
38m 13 27.4% Haleakala Run to the Sun
50k 254 23.8% Ohlone Wilderness 50K Trail Run
71m 13 23.4% WildFlower Long Course Triathlon
71m 9 23.1% California Half Ironman
34m 20 22.6% Peterson Ridge Rumble 60k
50k 6 22.5% Bandera 50km
50k 57 22.3% Run on the Sly 50 Km
50k 152 22.1% Golden Gate Headlands 50k
28m 406 22.1% Quad Dipsea
50k 88 21.9% McDonald Forest 50K
50k 80 21.6% Crown King Scramble
50k 16 21.0% Bulldog 50K Ultra Run
50k 35 20.9% Chuckanut 50k
50k 12 20.7% Siskiyou Out Back 50K
50k 340 20.6% Skyline 50k
50k 197 20.2% Quicksilver 50K
50k 870 20.0% Way Too Cool 50k
50k 39 19.8% Hagg Lake Trail Runs
50k 21 19.4% McKenzie River 50k
50k 10 18.6% Ruth Anderson 50k
50k 88 17.7% OTHTC High Desert Ultra 50k
50k 8 17.2% Salem Lakeshore Frosty Fifty Km
50k 268 17.0% Jed Smith 50K
50k 23 16.9% Helen Klein 50k
45m 9 13.8% Santa Barbara Long Course Triathlon
My 2 cents (not sure if it's worth that) is that the two races are completely different animals. A 50-miler is "just" a really long race. A 100-miler is a long more than a really, REALLY long race because you are dealing not only with endurance but staying awake for roughly 24 hours and night-running. My first 24-hour I made a ton of mistakes. The 2nd time, I made different mistakes. Despite reading lots and having a plan, I found that sleep deprivation did not lead to logical thinking. I'm hoping 3rd time's a charm.
My own personal experience is a range from about 2.2 - 2.7, so it seems the 2 1/2 times estimate is pretty close. However, as has been mentioned above, there are so many variables that come into play, that each race is totally different, even if it's the same trail, the same time of year, and the same old you.
However, I think a sub-24 is easily within reach with a 10 hour 50-miler. I ran a 100 this spring in just over 23 hours and ran a 50 a month later in 10 hours. The runs are reversed from yours, but it should give you some idea. If it's your first 100, I'd recommend concentrating on finishing first and accept anything else as icing.
[http://This message has been edited by 2slow4u (edited May-10-2007).|http://This message has been edited by 2slow4u (edited May-10-2007).]
good answers thanks!
but let me rephrase this again slightly...when do you think is a good time to have the 24 hour goal? I am going in with my goal being to finish, but if I make 50 miles in X time I would like to try for under 24.
what would be an X time to get to 50 miles then think you can do the under 24?
But I do not want to get into trouble by pushing it too hard too early and paying for it later. If you have done a 100 with a goal time, when do you decide your pace? or run just by feel? I know so much can happen during the race so really should I just go in and do it and if I go under 24, then that is great but not worry about the goal before hand?
also, that data is interesting but can you really compare an Ironman race, as 'only' 26 miles of that is running?
Run the first 50 like you have some sense (11-12 hours), and if you are feeling good, then try to hold that same pace. If you are able to hold the pace, then you have 24:00 in the bag. As I am sure you are expecting, the 2nd 50 miles are a bit tougher.
Really focus on food, fluids and taking care of yourself in general. A good pacer toward the end can help keep you moving when you will want to sit or walk.
As others said, do not push too hard early, or you will pay later.
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, a 100 miler is completely different from a 50 miler because of the night running element. Alot depends on how comfortable/experienced you are at running at night. Most people slow down at night, some people slow way down. What sort of night running have you done in training or past races?
I think I have a pretty good reference, although a bit
contorted. Sprinkling in a bit twisted logic, and I'll give what
I would consider a reasonable example. At Umstead this
year, I ran the first 50 mile split in 7:53. If I had run all out
to exhaustion, I may have pulled off 7:30. At that point it
as getting very hot out (for what I was used to at the time)
and I slowed to a very pleasant pace (that I probably would
have done no matter what I had previously done, given the
temperature). I finished in 18:53, way better than I ever
would have expected. I'm quite certain that no matter what
I had done better, but perhaps in cooler temperatures, I
might have broken 18 (after all, most would say that you
wouldn't want to hit a 50 mile PR during a 100 mile race),
but that would have really been a stretch. So, given a
course where the second 50 miles is the same as the first,
you can't come up with a better reference. So, with a
nebulous wave of my hand and some bizarre "logic," I
would say that a 7:30 50 miler, would roughly translate
to an 18 hour 100 miler on the same course. Hence, I
will claim a factor of 2.4 going from 50 to 100 with other
conditions being equal. Clear as mud, right?
Now, of course there's the issue that the number of things
that can go wrong going from 50 to 100 grows exponentially,
so there's a high level of noise that one would have to
apply to such a formula!
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There is no formula that works.
Even the ultralist formula is flawed. I plugged in some of my results for fun, & found the time swere out of whack. Too many variables come into play, & in a 100 miler they are exponentially exposed.
Look at what happened at WS with last year's heat....& snow the year prior....throw in personal effects, & you are looking at a very broad ballpark.
Best to heed dl999's advise & exercise patience. Also, a 100 miler is a battle of calories.
Originally posted by dl999:
so how is a 50 mile time an indicator of a 100 finish?
I have done 10.20 on a 50 and I am doing a 100 on a similar course. Could I break 24 and buckle?
Not a good indicator. Training will be the factor. It appears from your 50 mile time you will have to increase your training to have any chance of a sub 24.