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3351 Views 44 Replies Latest reply: Oct 11, 2007 10:33 PM by waltrb RSS Go to original post 1 2 3 Previous Next
  • exciton Rookie 317 posts since
    Nov 2, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    15. Oct 2, 2007 3:12 PM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by WalterRB:

    Maybe I picked the wrong forum....a hill question to a bunch of folks who can run more in a race than I run in a week (Know thyself: I'm a middle distance dude, happy with an AG place in a 5-10k)


     



    By the way, I don't think you picked the wrong forum. Maybe it will inspire you to try a so called ultra.

    Anyway, if you are talking about 5 and 10K trail races, then I would emphasize pushing the hills even more. Over that distance the goal should be no walking at all, if racing fast is your thing.

  • dmbrr Rookie 10 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    16. Oct 2, 2007 7:29 PM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    I found this video put together by Karl Meltzer to be extremely helpful in improving my downhill running form.

    Dave Bursler
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3usL8fIWhg[/URL" target="_blank">

  • rustyboy Rookie 112 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    17. Oct 3, 2007 8:59 PM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    Yup, you just go on and run that first hill:




    I'll see you at mile 80 when you're "recovering" on a downhill...bent over and dazed : )

  • exciton Rookie 317 posts since
    Nov 2, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    18. Oct 4, 2007 9:48 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by rustyboy:

    Yup, you just go on and run that first hill:


       

    I'll see you at mile 80 when you're "recovering" on a downhill...bent over and dazed : )




    The front runners DO run that first hill at Squaw. And, yes, they recover on downhills, and no, you will not see them any time after the start. Because they will have left you in the dust.

  • exciton Rookie 317 posts since
    Nov 2, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    19. Oct 4, 2007 9:55 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips
  • rustyboy Rookie 112 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    20. Oct 4, 2007 11:36 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    The front runners DO run that first hill at Squaw. And, yes, they recover on downhills, and no, you will not see them any time after the start. Because they will have left you in the dust.*


     



    I kinda didn't mean the superhumans. I'm convinced those people are "X Men" or something.

    Now if I, or other middle-of-the-packers did it, yeah...there'd be some puking and DNFing involved.

  • exciton Rookie 317 posts since
    Nov 2, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    21. Oct 5, 2007 11:52 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by rustyboy:

    I kinda didn't mean the superhumans. I'm convinced those people are "X Men" or something.

    Now if I, or other middle-of-the-packers did it, yeah...there'd be some puking and DNFing involved.




    But, rusty, that's what I'm trying to get across here. I think you CAN do it. It just takes practice. You are much, much stronger than you think, I guarantee. Sorry if I'm being abrasive again.

  • dinkwod Rookie 13 posts since
    Feb 7, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    22. Dec 27, 2007 2:11 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by WalterRB:


    Any tips, workout advice out there on how to better my descending skills so that my calves don't feel skewered?
    Thanks
    Walt


     




    If it is your calves that are bothering you then your probably feeling the affects of the preceding uphill. Calf muscles don't come into play as much on the downs. Loss of quad strength late in a race could be indicitive of insufficient preparation for the pace that you try to maintain on the downs. A lot of the battle in becoming a good hiller, up or down can be won in the weight room. Not to mention a lot of trail practice. Proper hydration and fuel will also keep those lower muscle churning the calories with less pain.


    [http://This message has been edited by dinkwod (edited Oct-05-2007).|http://This message has been edited by dinkwod (edited Oct-05-2007).]

  • corrade Rookie 31 posts since
    Aug 18, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    23. Dec 27, 2007 2:11 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by WalterRB:

    ....a hill question to a bunch of folks who can run more in a race than I run in a week (Know thyself: I'm a middle distance dude, happy with an AG place in a 5-10k) Well...it does say it's a "Trail Running" forum.
    Props to the one who mentioned that it's the descending that takes real finesse, not the uphill part.


     



    You can count on these Ultra freaks to turn a downhill discussion into a discussion of how to keep climbing uphill for hours : ) Beware! Maybe speaking from my own weakness, but this forum will soon have you planning your first ultra if you fall for the "Trail Running" ruse.

    Hold your arms out and a bit foward, use a mogul-hopping ski stance as mentioned earlier, and don't use the brakes. If you can turn your legs over fast enough to keep up with gravity, most of the effort is resisting the urge to plant your feet. It feels like you'll end up going too fast, but if you limit your feet to simply steering with minimal impact, you 'll stay safe. You can keep up with gravity without using the brakes. Without bracing against your fall, you'll be running with less impact, safer despite the speed. Like in zero gravity way up in outer space, the space shuttle gets along with short little blasts from tiny jets. That's what your feet are for, and rest the big engines. It's a goofy and totally ridiculous image to have while hurtling past rocks and trees but I find it helpfull. 90% of your effort is simply steering toward the path of least resistance, avoiding rocks and trees, and keeping your core stable. Terminal velocity isn't as bad as it sounds.

    [http://This message has been edited by corrade (edited Oct-06-2007).|http://This message has been edited by corrade (edited Oct-06-2007).]

  • Kitrin Rookie 38 posts since
    Sep 24, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    24. Oct 6, 2007 9:11 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    Corrade,

    Thank you for the useful advice. I asked some trail running questions over in the newbie forum (because I AM a newbie) and had two users suggest I come over here. It is intimidating to say the least.

    Maybe we should start a thread entitled "Enjoy the scenery" for those of us who are trail runners (I mostly run my 2-3 miles on trails) but not ultra-runners?

    Leave it to me to find a way to love an extreme sport and not want to do it to the extreme, LOL! You mentioned taking a stance similar to negotiating moguls, but I also do not ski (I am not that extreme either). Is this the hunched down, lean forward stance that is mentioned in the Speed Goat videos on YouTube?

    Cheers,
    Kitrin

  • mudrunner040 Rookie 375 posts since
    May 27, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    25. Oct 6, 2007 12:40 PM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    Kitrin....don't feel intimidated at all. Your question was totally appropriate & we are all really a  fun-loving bunch of dirt mongers.
    In fact....speaking for myself & perhaps other (ultra) trail runners...enjoying the trails is primary. The distance is just a side-effect of our enthusiasm.
    Welcome aboard!

  • corrade Rookie 31 posts since
    Aug 18, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    26. Oct 6, 2007 1:43 PM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by Kitrin:

    but I also do not ski (I am not that extreme either). Is this the hunched down, lean forward stance that is mentioned in the Speed Goat videos on YouTube?

    Cheers,
    Kitrin


     



    Yeah, those are pretty good videos.  Meltzer's advice to levitate is pretty funny but accurate.  Once you get your feet moving fast and light, that's where the fun begins.  Extreme fun! Honestly, you've got to be nuts to want to race down mountain trails anyway.  ; )  You're more extreme than you realize!

  • rustyboy Rookie 112 posts since
    Dec 14, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    27. Oct 8, 2007 3:00 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    exciton, thank for your opinions. You are welcome to them, BUT, I think your blanket statements are mislead and driven by ego. Do what you'd like with them. If you look over what very experienced 100 mile runners have to say in this thread, you'll see they are being very hands-off with disagreeing with you.

    My first 100 miler is in 13 days. I'll be walking the hills and finishing, very comfortably, in fewer hours than the cutoffs, barring emergencies.

    Please keep in mind: This forum is about opening up, not shutting down.

    We all run our own races. That's why we love ultras.

    enjoy your time out there, running the way you like to!

  • fbgrrl Rookie 93 posts since
    Aug 15, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    28. Oct 8, 2007 11:51 AM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    Corrade - thanks for the great description.  I can understand what you're getting at.  Now I just have to get up the nerve not to put the brakes on.

    I've been lurking here while I'm mostly posting in the newbie forum. I love running on trails. I'm lousy at it and I only go 2-3 miles at a time, but I truly love being surrounded by trees and listening to birds chirp and squirrels bark. It makes the run actually enjoyable. Running on the sidewalk is boring and tedious and I can't wait to get it over with. Running trails is FUN and the time flies by.

    quote:


    Originally posted by Kitrin:

    Maybe we should start a thread entitled "Enjoy the scenery" for those of us who are trail runners (I mostly run my 2-3 miles on trails) but not ultra-runners?

    Leave it to me to find a way to love an extreme sport and not want to do it to the extreme


     



    That's me, too.  I'm up for the 'Enjoy the Scenery' thread while I'm reading the ultra threads feeling rather overwhelmed and totally in awe.  I hope you folks are ok with a couple of shorter distance trail runners posting over here with you.

  • exciton Rookie 317 posts since
    Nov 2, 2004
    Currently Being Moderated
    29. Oct 8, 2007 3:22 PM (in response to waltrb)
    Re: Descending Tips

    quote:


    Originally posted by rustyboy:
    [B]This forum is about opening up, not shutting down.


     




    Yes, and I would like to open up people's minds to the possibility that they can do much more than they imagine. Short circuiting yourself right off the bat by presupposing your limitations is not opening up. It's shutting down. But as I already said, I find nothing wrong with running easy and enjoying scenery as opposed to racing. My opinions on this are addressed only to people who want to race well.

    I think my last thought on the subject is fairly bullet-proof:

    If you want to be fast, train (and race) in such a way that you are able to spend more time running fast on more and more kinds of difficult terrain. Your development as a runner will take years.

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