Mar 25, 2008 6:51 PM
Player in 2 different leagues, in 2 different districts
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Has anyone (particular from a divorced family) tried to enroll a player in Little League in two different leagues in two different districts?
I haven't seen the rule myself, but I've been told that Reg IV (c) on page 31 states that no player may be on more than one roster in the LL program.
Can someone with more experience in LL explain that to me? I've asked for the reasons/purpose behind the rule, but no one has responded to my request.
I was told by one DA that it's because of All Stars, so I proposed to amend the rule so that no player may be on more than one All Star team in the LL program, but the DA simply stated a rule is a rule.
I'm trying to get this reviewed by the Charter Committee, but one of the DA's says he won't even pass it along for their review if he doesn't approved, which according to this website -- http://www.littleleague.org/common/misc/rulewaiver.asp -- doesn't seem correct.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!
You were told correctly in regards to the rule. The first questions is, what is his legal residence? Can only register where you have legal residence.
I will turn the question around on you.
What is the purpose of having the child play in two different leagues? Our teams practice at least one night a week, typically have BP the night before the weekday game, a weekday game and a Saturday game. That's 4 out of 7 without dealing with rainouts/makeups.
Seems like trying to play in two leagues would create a lot of schedule conflicts. Which team/league gets priority?
He has two legal residences -- one in Davis, CA (district 64) and one in Folsom, CA (district 54). His father and I shared joint legal & physical custody (50/50 sharing plan, alternating each week). Based on legal boundary eligibility he literally lives in two different houses in two different cities.
Does that rule take into consideration children with 2 legal residences? My guess, is no, because most kids don't have 2 legal residences, especially in 2 different districts.
The purpose of having him play in two different leagues is to develop friendships and a sense of community through extra-cirricular activities, such as baseball, in both places where he lives.
He generally has about 3 days of baseball a week (for one particular team, 4 days are rare) and priority is based on where he is during that particular week. However we live close enough that on weekends he can attend games/practices for either team assuming no scheduling conflicts. And surprisingly there are very few weekend games that conflict -- I think 2 total for the season.
My bigger concern is with the DA who isn't even willing to send the waiver through to the Charter Committee. He's telling his league that if they submit the waiver request, he'll revoke their district tournament rights (which isn't under LL control).
Just to get some background -- how long have you been associated with LL? Are you a DA? Do you know a DA? Have you had any kids with a similar situation that actually have 2 legal residences?
To answer your questions about Mark (whom I personally know), he's a local league chief umpire. He's also one of my assistants on the district umpiring staff. Mark and I have been umpiring LL Baseball for essentially the same amount of time (about ten years). In fact, he took over for me as the chief umpire of his league; I was their chief for six years.
Now for your concern, I must admit that your DA is being rather bullheaded about this. He has no right to threaten the league with their tournament rights. If the league submits a formal waiver request, he is obligated to send it up the chain with his recommendation. All waiver requests must go to LL HQ (except for those that LL has specifically empowered DAs to approve).
As for your son, the answer you will get from LL HQ will undoubtedly be: Pick a league, just one league. It's pretty cut and dried. No player is allowed to play in multiple leagues, period. In this day and age, your son's situation is not that unique that LL HQ probably hasn't considered it. I'm sure there are lots of kids in LL who spend equal time living with divorced parents. It's just not fair to all involved to have a kid playing in two leagues.
Let's say you decide your son will play for both leagues, but he will only play All Stars in Davis. So he makes a Majors team in Davis and Folsom. What about that kid who doesn't get selected to play Majors in Folsom because your son is on it? Is that fair to that kid?
Then let's say both the Davis team and the Folsom team that your son plays for are both playing important games that will decide who wins the regular season championship. Both managers are encouraging you and your ex-husband to have your son at the ball park for the game. How do you decide? And how will the kids from the team he doesn't play for in that game feel?
And then come All Stars, your son makes the Davis team. The Folsom All Star team, meanwhile, is a weaker team that would've benefited having your son play for them. Is that fair to all those kids who know your son and would've wanted him to play All Stars with them? Don't you think they'll feel snubbed by your son? How is that going to affect their friendships?
But then Davis team gets eliminated during district play, and Folsom somehow finds a way to win and advance to the next level. How do you think that would make your son feel? Wouldn't he feel cheated out of the opportunity to play more baseball, and be upset because he was told he had to play All Stars for Davis?
Your desire to instill friendship and community to your son is noble. But there are numerous other ways to do that. He could play LL for one town, and PONY or AAU or Cal Ripken for another. Or he can play different sports. There's just too many problems with having a player playing in more than one local LL. It not only affects the kid in question, but it affects other kids and parents as well. I'm sure LL HQ has taken all that into account when they made their ruling. So it would come as a huge surprise to me if they were to grant your request.
JMO, Manny
I (currently) serve as a ADA-Rules Director-[Assistant District Administrator]...with over 46 years involvement in many, many capacities over the years.
Had a similar situation many years ago.
The ruling from the powers-that-be at that time.
The child can ONLY be rostered/play within the district/league where he puts his head to sleep during the school year.
Predicated on one legal/custodial-[or shared legal custodial]- parent or guardian residing within that district/league boundary.
Your situation, with the child alternating custodial weeks while school is in session, requires a specific ruling from Williamsport.
But, as others have said. A child being rostered on two different LL teams at the same time-IMO-would not be approved.
Frank!
The purpose of having him play in two different leagues is to develop friendships and a sense of community through extra-cirricular activities, such as baseball, in both places where he lives.
If the purpose is as stated above, then I would suggest to sign him up in another sport, like basketball or soccer. If this is not possible, look up anpother baseball league like Pony Baseball.
HP
He does participate in other activities (basketball, soccer, wakeboarding, we're looking into flag football), and to my knowledge LL is the only baseball league available in Folsom. I haven't heard of Pony or Cal Ripken or some of the other ones that Manny mentioned, but I will definitely look into it.
I was able to get a hold of a rule book and read the rule -- one big question is how is a local league president ever supposed to verify or check whether each player is on another local leagues' roster? That seems impossible to do as they "MUST certify and be responsible for the eligibility of each candidate previous to player selection."
Although you all think that Williamsport would not rule in my favor, I wish the DA would've at least let them review the waiver and make a decision. I wish there was an opportunity for parents (non-LL volunteers) to voice their concerns/requests to LL in an effort to try to amend rules during the International Congress of LL.
I would be really interested to see how many other kids actually have 2 legal residences in two different districts with a 50/50 custody. I agree that in this day and age most kids live with their parents separately, but if the custody is 50/50 they are generally within the same city or at least county (not sure how LL divides districts).
The other thing is that he's only in AAA (9, 10, 11 year olds) so why is it even a big deal??? To be honest, I think the bureaucracy within LL is a little extreme for a community extra-cirricular activity.
Manny had mentioned the scenario of getting picked for both All Star teams - "So he makes a Majors team in Davis and Folsom. What about that kid who doesn't get selected to play Majors in Folsom because your son is on it? Is that fair to that kid?" You solve that issue by making the selection before All Star players are chosen -- so from the beginning let it be known he will only be eligible to try out for one All Star team.
This is his first year in AAA, so I don't know if regular season championships are even that big of a deal? I don't recall anything like that in AA. But the chances of a player missing an important game due to vacations or other obligations is not that uncommon. Plus as I mentioned, he only has 2 games that conflict. But this comes back to LL meaning a lot more to other parents and players then I think it really should when you step back and look at the big picture.
Great to hear input from you all.
You refer to the DA as bring the "bad guy" in your posts. Reason: he will not forward the subject waiver request on up the Chain of Command.
However, you have made no mention of a key element mandated in the waiver protocol....that being approval by the local league Board of Directors as noted in the link provided in your first post...and page 30 of the 2008 Operating Manual. #1 in the 5-step process.
Why I mention this?
The DA is not obligated to give his opinion/recommendation /OR/ forward any waiver request up the Chain of Command unless the local league BOD has (first) approved the waiver request. If not approved by the BOD; the DA is out of the loop; indeed he/she would never know what the BOD did not approve. It's a "dead issue"...never to cross the DA's desk.
Now, if the BOD did approve....go to the last Q/A embodied in your posted link...as follows:
Viz:: Q: "If he/she opposed the request does it mean it will fail?"
Ans: "All of the aspects of a waiver request are taken into account by the Charter Committee, and the OPINION of one or more parties involved does not necessarily mean the request will be denied." Re: Player in 2 different leagues, in 2 different districts
Point: You are beating a dead-horsethe DA if the local BOD DID NOT approve the request.
If the board DID approve,...then the waiver process established by LL Inc.,, is not being complied with by way of the DA NOT affixing his/her recommendation and forwarding up the "chain" as requred. You have a legitimate complaint in that regard.....assuming you are willing to go over the DA's head.
Frank!
I've read all those rules and understand the BOD needs to approve a waiver before taking it to the DA, however before the BOD even had a chance to approve the DA said (quote from his emails):
"I am sorry but I can not approve this waiver and will not allow any of my leagues to allow this waiver to be submitted. It must be approved by me and I and then I would submit to Little League International Charter Committe."
Another question/response to the DA: My understanding is that a request can still go to the Charter Committee if it is opposed by the DA (assuming the local boards approve it), is that correct?
DA's response: "If they do, They could lose the right to be in Tournament of Champions. Whic h is a District run Tournament. Not under Little League control."
Based on that response it's pretty obvious that the local league president and BOD aren't going to risk their tournament rights just for one kid. However, to me that's an abuse of the DA's authority because he is essentially tying the hands of the local league BOD and not allowing them to make an unbiased decision. I talked to the coach and he was 100% on board with my son playing in both leagues and the president seemed fine with it also until the DA threatened their tournament rights.
Can anyone respond to that? I tried to get an answer from national and regional about whether or not the DA has the authority to do that, but no one responded to me. My guess is that they don't want to upset any DA's since they are volunteers and doing this out of the kindness of their hearts and not for the money!
Looking at the situation realistically and objectively......its parts and its whole. While I don't agree with the DA's heavy-handed handling of the waiver process; and as long as the powers-that-be choose, as you stated, not to respond; and the district leagues allow themselvesto be intimidated by "threats" ....caving in to the DA's demand, you're caught between the rock and the hard place.
Speaking to the coach and the league president, and hearing what you wanted to hear from them, proved to be some "patronizing" talk from them. Niether one, singularly or collectively, having any positive impact on generating a legal waiver process being "sand-bagged" by the DA. Whether the request is approved or not, the process, being flaunted by the DA, must remain alive and well. Otherwise, any and other waiver requests could suffer the same fate as yours...with one or more of these league presidents and/or board approvals getting "burned" on any given waiver request.
Today You!....Tomorrow Them!
IMO---as a District Rules Director.... the DA, not allowing the waiver protocol/processs to take place rises above allowing your child to be rostered in two leagues/two districts, in violation of LL rules...sans a granted waiver of course.
Waiver rights requests are a given privilege in Little League. The request being approved or disapproved is another story.
If I may be so bold with the analogy! In a judicial venue, your DA's actions would be tantamount to a judge pre-empting the jury system.
Frank!
First, I agree, the child can only play in ONE League. That said, the league does NOT have to be the one in where "he puts his head to sleep during the school year. "
He is eligible to play in a league in which either parent resides. So, he can live with mom in Town A and still legally register and play in the league where dad resides (Town B). He does NOT need a Waiver to play in either Town. Heck, he could even live with Grandma in Town C and he would still be eligible to play in Town A or Town but but NOT Town C, where he lives (unless he got a Waiver)! Of course, if Granda was his court appointed legal guardian then he could only play in Town C!!!
Bottom line, doesn't matter where the player lives, it where his parents (or court appointed guardian) live.
Lou.....The reply, quoted from the powers-that-be-- at the time..."where he, the child, puts his head to sleep during the school year" was within the context presented by our OP on this thread....."both parents sharing legal and physical custody of the child"......in my scenario, some years back, both divorced parents DID share legal and shared custody......with the question arising as to which parent's home league was entitled to register the child? Both leagues wanted the child.
In our case, the reply received from the "powers" resolved the dilemma because the child slept at his mother's house the ENTIRE school year...and summered with his father.
Thus the mother's home league got the child....requiring no waiver.
What you explained is absolutely true where one parent has 100% legal and physical custody.....and the other non-custodial parent resides in another league, allowing the child to sign up in either of the two leagues, but not both. Simple problem, simple solution, requiring no waiver...as you correctly stated.
BUT.....
Our OP has a UNIGUE situation.....BOTH parents sharing legal and physical custody..BUT....the child ALTERNATING living with his mother one week and father the next week, flip-flopping during the entire school year-.--with the mother ADDING to the uniqueness of the problem/situation by wanting the child to play in two different districts, two different leagues, two differnt teams; in violation of LL rules. As with any other desired exemption of a LL rule-[where options to use or not use a rule are offered]-a waiver would be needed. The "alternate living weeks" separates the OP's context from my cited context....and "head on the pillow" reply received at that time.
A waiver request that is being "squelched" by the DA--who, IMO, has corrupted the allowed waiver protocol/process itself by not allowing-[approved or disapproved by him]the request to take place. In effect sand-bagging due process to take place.
Of course the concensus of LL veterans on this thread...would not be approved by Williamsport.
To me, as a District Rules Director--the bigger problem is what the DA took upon himself to do...i.e. ...not allowed the waiver process to take its course.
Not on my watch would I knowingly allow that to happen.
Frank!
I do agree, the DA has no right to not process a Waiver and certainly should not be "threatening" a league because they ask for one. Some DAs just don't understand what their job really is! They are supposed to be helping the leagues not fighting against them.
As for the situation where the child moves back and forth between two leagues and both leagues want the child, how about asking the child which league he wants to play in??? As we agree, he's only allowed to play in one and if mom and dad can't agree why not ask the kid? He probably has more friends in one than the other so he probably would rather play in one than the other. If he has no preference then flip a coin, draw cards, whatever !!!
I've read all those rules and understand the BOD needs to approve a waiver before taking it to the DA, however before the BOD even had a chance to approve the DA said (quote from his emails):
"I am sorry but I can not approve this waiver and will not allow any of my leagues to allow this waiver to be submitted. It must be approved by me and I and then I would submit to Little League International Charter Committe."
He's dead wrong on this one. A waiver does NOT have to be approved before he submits it to LL HQ. If the league BOD submits a waiver request, the DA is obligated to send it up with his endorsement.
Another question/response to the DA: My understanding is that a request can still go to the Charter Committee if it is opposed by the DA (assuming the local boards approve it), is that correct?
DA's response: "If they do, They could lose the right to be in Tournament of Champions. Whic h is a District run Tournament. Not under Little League control."
Everything is under "Little League control" if the game is being played by LL teams representing LL local leagues wearing LL uniforms. This DA is on a power trip and needs to have someone from Region read him the riot act.
I talked to the coach and he was 100% on board with my son playing in both leagues and the president seemed fine with it also until the DA threatened their tournament rights.
It really doesn't matter what the coach and president feel. In the grand scheme, their opinions don't count.
As for your DA, as others have said, he's being a real a$$ about this whole thing. I don't understand what he's worried about. Chances are very, very slim that the Charter Committee will approve any waiver requesting that a child play in two different leagues simultaneously. He should just endorse the request with his disapproval, and send it on up the chain.
I tried to get an answer from national and regional about whether or not the DA has the authority to do that, but no one responded to me. My guess is that they don't want to upset any DA's since they are volunteers and doing this out of the kindness of their hearts and not for the money!
How do you know that someone hasn't contacted the DA already to find out what's going on? That could've happened and nobody told you.
No offense, dcyro, but in my opinion, you're making too many waves to try to get your way. It's pretty clear that kids cannot play in multiple leagues simultaneously. I have never heard of any child being granted a waiver to do just that. Your reason to request just isn't that compelling to me. Those kinds of requests are looked upon favorably only if there is some adversity or hardship that the parent is trying to alleviate. I don't see that here. You are basically asking for a "cake and eat it" type of waiver, and I think it just won't happen. That said, I also think your DA is being too stupid about the whole thing. He should go ahead and allow the league to submit the waiver if that's what they want to do.
Manny
In your opinions would there be any chance of Williamsport approving a waiver if the reason was different? Or do you all think they are pretty set in stone with this rule?
Manny mentioned adversity & hardship. What do they consider hardship?
I thought the friendships/sense of community was a good reason, but knowing that Williamsport looks more for alleviating adversity/hardship I would've submitted a different reason.
One of the other reasons we wanted him to play in both communities is because they are about 45 minutes apart (without traffic), so if he had a late night weekday game or practice we get home at 9:00 or later. Which is tough during the week. Although he does go to school 45 minutes away, we always get home early because I pick him up when school gets out, but if we have to stay in Davis for LL then it makes for a long day. Even if he had a late game in the same city the fact that we can't go home between school and games makes it that much more of an inconvenience.
Or would that not be considered a hardship in Williamsport's eyes? I would think most other kids drive 15 minutes max to get home since most people play in the same city they live (based on LL boundary guidelines, right?)
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