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13385 Views 30 Replies Latest reply: Apr 10, 2008 7:28 PM by Manny_A RSS 1 2 3 Previous Next
dcyro Amateur 11 posts since
Mar 25, 2008
Currently Being Moderated

Mar 25, 2008 6:51 PM

Player in 2 different leagues, in 2 different districts

 

Has anyone (particular from a divorced family) tried to enroll a player in Little League in two different leagues in two different districts?

 

 

I haven't seen the rule myself, but I've been told that Reg IV (c) on page 31 states that no player may be on more than one roster in the LL program.

 

 

Can someone with more experience in LL explain that to me?  I've asked for the reasons/purpose behind the rule, but no one has responded to my request.

 

 

I was told by one DA that it's because of All Stars, so I proposed to amend the rule so that no player may be on more than one All Star team in the LL program, but the DA simply stated a rule is a rule.

 

 

I'm trying to get this reviewed by the Charter Committee, but one of the DA's says he won't even pass it along for their review if he doesn't approved, which according to this website -- http://www.littleleague.org/common/misc/rulewaiver.asp -- doesn't seem correct.

 

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

 

 

  • Mark_S Pro 70 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Mar 27, 2008 12:29 PM (in response to dcyro)
    Re: Player in 2 different leagues, in 2 different districts

     

    You were told correctly in regards to the rule.  The first questions is, what is his legal residence?  Can only register where you have legal residence.

     

     

    I will turn the question around on you.

     

     

    What is the purpose of having the child play in two different leagues?  Our teams practice at least one night a week, typically have BP the night before the weekday game, a weekday game and a Saturday game.  That's 4 out of 7 without dealing with rainouts/makeups.

     

     

    Seems like trying to play in two leagues would create a lot of schedule conflicts.  Which team/league gets priority?

     

     

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007

    To answer your questions about Mark (whom I personally know), he's a local league chief umpire. He's also one of my assistants on the district umpiring staff. Mark and I have been umpiring LL Baseball for essentially the same amount of time (about ten years). In fact, he took over for me as the chief umpire of his league; I was their chief for six years.

     

    Now for your concern, I must admit that your DA is being rather bullheaded about this. He has no right to threaten the league with their tournament rights. If the league submits a formal waiver request, he is obligated to send it up the chain with his recommendation. All waiver requests must go to LL HQ (except for those that LL has specifically empowered DAs to approve).

     

    As for your son, the answer you will get from LL HQ will undoubtedly be: Pick a league, just one league. It's pretty cut and dried. No player is allowed to play in multiple leagues, period. In this day and age, your son's situation is not that unique that LL HQ probably hasn't considered it. I'm sure there are lots of kids in LL who spend equal time living with divorced parents. It's just not fair to all involved to have a kid playing in two leagues.

     

     

    Let's say you decide your son will play for both leagues, but he will only play All Stars in Davis. So he makes a Majors team in Davis and Folsom. What about that kid who doesn't get selected to play Majors in Folsom because your son is on it? Is that fair to that kid?

     

     

    Then let's say both the Davis team and the Folsom team that your son plays for are both playing important games that will decide who wins the regular season championship. Both managers are encouraging you and your ex-husband to have your son at the ball park for the game. How do you decide? And how will the kids from the team he doesn't play for in that game feel?

     

     

    And then come All Stars, your son makes the Davis team. The Folsom All Star team, meanwhile, is a weaker team that would've benefited having your son play for them. Is that fair to all those kids who know your son and would've wanted him to play All Stars with them? Don't you think they'll feel snubbed by your son? How is that going to affect their friendships?

     

     

    But then Davis team gets eliminated during district play, and Folsom somehow finds a way to win and advance to the next level. How do you think that would make your son feel? Wouldn't he feel cheated out of the opportunity to play more baseball, and be upset because he was told he had to play All Stars for Davis?

     

     

    Your desire to instill friendship and community to your son is noble. But there are numerous other ways to do that. He could play LL for one town, and PONY or AAU or Cal Ripken for another. Or he can play different sports. There's just too many problems with having a player playing in more than one local LL. It not only affects the kid in question, but it affects other kids and parents as well. I'm sure LL HQ has taken all that into account when they made their ruling. So it would come as a huge surprise to me if they were to grant your request.

     

     

    JMO, Manny

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    I (currently) serve as a ADA-Rules Director-[Assistant District Administrator]...with over 46 years involvement in many, many capacities over the years.

     

    Had a similar situation many years ago.

     

     

    The ruling from the powers-that-be at that time.

     

     

    The child can ONLY be rostered/play within the district/league where he puts his head to sleep during the school year.

     

     

    Predicated on one legal/custodial-[or shared legal custodial]- parent or guardian residing within that district/league boundary.

     

     

    Your situation, with the child alternating custodial weeks while school is in session, requires a specific ruling from Williamsport.

     

     

    But, as others have said. A child being rostered on two different LL teams at the same time-IMO-would not  be approved.

     

     

    Frank!

  • hpaziii Rookie 4 posts since
    May 31, 2007

     

    The purpose of having him play in two different leagues is to develop friendships and a sense of community through extra-cirricular activities, such as baseball, in both places where he lives.

     

     

    If the purpose is as stated above, then I would suggest to sign him up in another sport, like basketball or soccer.  If this is not possible, look up anpother baseball league like Pony Baseball.

     

     

     

     

     

    HP

     

     

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    You refer to the DA as bring the "bad guy" in your posts. Reason: he will not forward the subject waiver request on up the Chain of Command.

     

    However, you have made no mention of a key element mandated in the waiver protocol....that being approval by the local league Board of Directors as noted in the link provided in your first post...and page 30 of the 2008 Operating Manual. #1 in the 5-step process.

     

     

    Why I mention this?

     

     

    The DA is not obligated to give his opinion/recommendation /OR/ forward any waiver request up the Chain of Command unless the local league BOD has (first) approved the waiver request. If not approved by the BOD; the DA is out of the loop; indeed he/she would never know what the BOD did not approve. It's a "dead issue"...never to cross the DA's desk.

     

     

    Now, if the BOD did approve....go to the last Q/A embodied in your posted link...as follows:

     

     

    Viz:: Q: "If he/she opposed the request does it mean it will fail?"

     

     

    Ans: "All of the aspects of a waiver request are taken into account by the Charter Committee, and the OPINION of one or more parties involved does not necessarily mean the request will be denied." Re: Player in 2 different leagues, in 2 different districts

     

     

    Point: You are beating a dead-horsethe DA if the local BOD DID NOT approve the request.

     

     

    If the board DID approve,...then the waiver process established by LL Inc.,, is not being complied with by way of the DA NOT affixing his/her recommendation and forwarding up the "chain" as requred. You have a legitimate complaint in that regard.....assuming you are willing to go over the DA's head.

     

     

    Frank!

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    Looking at the situation realistically and objectively......its parts and its whole. While I don't agree with the DA's heavy-handed handling of the waiver process; and as long as the powers-that-be choose, as you stated, not to respond; and the district leagues allow themselvesto be intimidated by "threats" ....caving in to the DA's demand, you're caught between the rock and the hard place.

     

     

     

     

     

    Speaking to the coach and the league president, and hearing what you wanted to hear from them, proved to be some "patronizing" talk from them. Niether one, singularly or collectively, having any positive impact on generating a legal waiver process being "sand-bagged" by the DA. Whether the request is approved or not, the process, being flaunted by the DA, must remain alive and well. Otherwise, any and other waiver requests could suffer the same fate as yours...with one or more of these league presidents and/or board approvals getting "burned" on any given waiver request.

     

     

    Today You!....Tomorrow Them!

     

     

    IMO---as a District Rules Director.... the DA, not allowing the waiver protocol/processs to take place rises above allowing your child to be rostered in two leagues/two districts, in violation of LL rules...sans a granted waiver of course.

     

     

    Waiver rights requests are a given privilege in Little League. The request being approved or disapproved is another story.

     

     

     

     

     

    If I may be so bold with the analogy!  In a judicial venue, your DA's actions would be tantamount to a judge pre-empting the jury system.

     

     

    Frank!

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007

     

    First, I agree, the child can only play in ONE League.  That said, the league does NOT have to be the one in where "he puts his head to sleep during the school year. "

     

     

    He is eligible to play in a league in which either parent resides.  So, he can live with mom in Town A and still legally register and play in the league where dad resides (Town B).   He does NOT need a Waiver to play in either Town.  Heck, he could even live with Grandma in Town C and he would still be eligible to play in Town A or Town but but NOT Town C, where he lives (unless he got a Waiver)!  Of course, if Granda was his court appointed legal guardian then he could only play in Town C!!!

     

     

    Bottom line, doesn't matter where the player lives, it where his parents (or court appointed guardian) live.

     

     

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007

    Lou.....The reply, quoted from the powers-that-be-- at the time..."where he, the child, puts his head to sleep during the school year" was within the context presented by our OP on this thread....."both parents sharing legal and physical custody of the child"......in my scenario, some years back, both divorced parents DID share legal and shared custody......with the question arising as to which parent's home league was entitled to register the child? Both leagues wanted the child.

     

    In our case, the reply received from the "powers" resolved the dilemma because the child slept at his mother's house the ENTIRE school year...and summered with his father.

     

     

    Thus the mother's home league got the child....requiring no waiver.

     

     

    What you explained is absolutely true where one parent has 100% legal and physical custody.....and the other non-custodial parent resides in another league, allowing the child to sign up in either of the two leagues, but not both. Simple problem, simple solution, requiring no waiver...as you correctly stated.

     

     

    BUT.....

     

     

    Our OP has a UNIGUE situation.....BOTH parents sharing legal and physical custody..BUT....the child ALTERNATING living with his mother one week and father the next week, flip-flopping during the entire school year-.--with the mother ADDING to the uniqueness of the problem/situation by wanting the child to play in two different districts, two different leagues, two differnt teams; in violation of LL rules. As with any other desired exemption of a LL rule-[where options to use or not use a rule are offered]-a waiver would be needed. The "alternate living weeks" separates the OP's context from my cited context....and "head on the pillow" reply received at that time.

     

     

    A waiver request that is being "squelched" by the DA--who, IMO, has corrupted the allowed waiver protocol/process itself by not allowing-[approved or disapproved by him]the request to take place. In effect sand-bagging due process to take place.

     

     

    Of course the concensus of LL veterans on this thread...would not be approved by Williamsport.

     

     

    To me, as a District Rules Director--the bigger problem is what the DA took upon himself to do...i.e. ...not allowed the waiver process to take its course.

     

     

    Not on my watch would I knowingly allow that to happen.

     

     

    Frank!

  • Lou_B Community Moderator 1,319 posts since
    May 25, 2007

     

    I do agree, the DA has no right to not process a Waiver and certainly should not be "threatening" a league because they ask for one.  Some DAs just don't understand what their job really is!  They are supposed to be helping the leagues not fighting against them.

     

     

    As for the situation where the child moves back and forth between two leagues and both leagues want the child, how about asking the child which league he wants to play in???  As we agree, he's only allowed to play in one and if mom and dad can't agree why not ask the kid?  He probably has more friends in one than the other so he probably would rather play in one than the other.  If he has no preference then flip a coin, draw cards, whatever !!!

     

     

  • Manny_A Legend 841 posts since
    May 25, 2007

     

    I've read all those rules and understand the BOD needs to approve a waiver before taking it to the DA, however before the BOD even had a chance to approve the DA said (quote from his emails):

     

     

    "I am sorry but I can not approve this waiver and will not allow any of my leagues to allow this waiver to be submitted. It must be approved by me and I and then I would submit to Little League International Charter Committe."

     

     

    He's dead wrong on this one.  A waiver does NOT have to be approved before he submits it to LL HQ.  If the league BOD submits a waiver request, the DA is obligated to send it up with his endorsement.

     

     

    Another question/response to the DA: My understanding is that a request can still go to the Charter Committee if it is opposed by the DA (assuming the local boards approve it), is that correct?

     

     

     

    DA's response: "If they do, They could lose the right to be in Tournament of Champions. Whic h is a District run Tournament. Not under Little League control."

     

     

    Everything is under "Little League control" if the game is being played by LL teams representing LL local leagues wearing LL uniforms.  This DA is on a power trip and needs to have someone from Region read him the riot act.

     

     

    I talked to the coach and he was 100% on board with my son playing in both leagues and the president seemed fine with it also until the DA threatened their tournament rights.

     

     

    It really doesn't matter what the coach and president feel.  In the grand scheme, their opinions don't count.

     

     

    As for your DA, as others have said, he's being a real a$$ about this whole thing.  I don't understand what he's worried about.  Chances are very, very slim that the Charter Committee will approve any waiver requesting that a child play in two different leagues simultaneously.  He should just endorse the request with his disapproval, and send it on up the chain.

     

     

    I tried to get an answer from national and regional about whether or not the DA has the authority to do that, but no one responded to me. My guess is that they don't want to upset any DA's since they are volunteers and doing this out of the kindness of their hearts and not for the money!

     

     

    How do you know that someone hasn't contacted the DA already to find out what's going on?  That could've happened and nobody told you.

     

     

    No offense, dcyro, but in my opinion, you're making too many waves to try to get your way.  It's pretty clear that kids cannot play in multiple leagues simultaneously.  I have never heard of any child being granted a waiver to do just that.  Your reason to request just isn't that compelling to me.  Those kinds of requests are looked upon favorably only if there is some adversity or hardship that the parent is trying to alleviate.  I don't see that here.  You are basically asking for a "cake and eat it" type of waiver, and I think it just won't happen.  That said, I also think your DA is being too stupid about the whole thing.  He should go ahead and allow the league to submit the waiver if that's what they want to do.

     

     

    Manny

     

     

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