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22 Replies Last post: Apr 14, 2008 9:23 AM by fred-urie   1 2 Previous Next
Click to view cuchulain9's profile Amateur 19 posts since
Nov 29, 2006
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Apr 8, 2008 11:32 PM

Age graded results


I've had a very good period of running over the last three years now, i.e. I've stayed healthy for the most part. (I've never stopped running.) My times have improved and I feel better than ever. My question is, is anyone who trained and raced seriously and well in their prime, i.e. 20's and 30's, running times now that using WAVA calculators are equal to their prime time times? (Excuse the alliterations.) For example, my 5k pr is 16:49. I've now got my 5k time DOWN to 22:20. The WAVA tables say I should run somethining like low 20's. age adjusted. I could do that only with a bicycle, and based on my track workouts, that is not remotely feasible. What is the experience of others?
Click to view Jim24315's profile Legend 1,921 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
1. Apr 9, 2008 7:17 AM in response to: cuchulain9
Re: Age graded results
Our PR’s are very close, except that I was a late starter, running 16:39 for 5k, and 33:48 for 10k at age 43, my peak year. After having a couple good years after that my training started tailing off until I was doing almost nothing by age 51. Then, a little more than 3 years ago before turning 59, I started to pick it up again. It wasn’t long after getting going again that I realized that it would be impossible to run the times I did in my 40’s. Like you, I started looking at he WAVA tables to get an idea of what was realistic. After some study, I set a few goals with my primary one being a sub-39 10k. According to the tables I would be able to run a 38:51 if I were able to train up to the same relative level of fitness I had in my 40’s.

However, I realized that it took 3 solid years of my most focused level of training to run the sub-34 back in ’89, so it wasn’t likely that I would be able to go sub-39 in just one year. At age 61, the equivalent time drops to 39:13, and by age 62 to 39:37. Therefore I made sub-40 my goal. This was using the 1994 WAVA tables. The more recent 2006 version makes it a little easier.

After a few months I ran a 5k to set a benchmark to base my training on, running 21:30. That first year back I averaged a fraction under 40 mpw and brought my 5k time down to 19:40. I didn’t even run a 10k that year—2005.

In 2006, my first year as a 60-year old, I was only able to bring the 5k down another 5 seconds, running 19:35 in the spring. I also tried a few 10k’s, with the best being a 40:24. Average weekly mileage for the year was just over 40 miles.

By the beginning of 2007 I started to have some doubts that I’d ever see another sub-40. I wasn’t getting any younger and had been training steadily for more than 2 years. However, I wasn’t quite ready to throw in the towel. I increased my mileage to the level I was at in my 40’s when I set all my actual PR’s. It worked out to an average of 53 mpw for the entire year, but I averaged 60 mpw over most of last 6 months. Finally, in May, I got a little nibble when I ran 31:49 for 8k—still not quite good enough for sub-40 in the 10 but it gave me hope. Then finally, on August 5, 2007 I broke through with a 39:36 on a flat, fast, certified loop on an unseasonably cool day in Northern Cal. This was after well over 2 years of trying and many doubts along the way.

After that day, things really started coming together. I finally lowered that stubborn 5k PR that I'd hardly improved on after such an encouraging beginning. A month after the 10k breakthrough I ran 19:11, and followed it up with a 19:04 two weeks after that. PR’s at other distances also came in rapid succession. All those miles, often getting up early to run in the rain, had finally started paying off. Now at 62 I’ve already broken 3 of last year’s PR’s, including a 10k in 39:22 I ran a couple weeks ago. What I forgot mention was weight, which I’m sure has also been a factor. I’m actually 5 lbs lighter now than when I set actual PR’s when I was in my 40’s. Resting pulse is also the same as it was then. In a nutshell it's taken 3 years of training at same volume as in the old days, getting down to an even lower weight, and same resting heart rate--a lot of work, but well worth it.

It seems that we have communicated before back on the old CR thread. Your handle sounds familiar, but I can’t quite place the name with it. We might have even exchanged an email or 2. How does your training now compare with your PR years? How about weight?
Click to view Pete O'Boyle's profile Pro 74 posts since
Oct 17, 2007
2. Apr 9, 2008 7:57 AM in response to: Jim24315
Re: Age graded results

First, as someone who has been running since his 20s (actually in my teens with high school track) I can attest that yes, the age-graded WAVA tables are pretty accurate. For example, my all-time marathon PR is 3:01 set when I was 24. That time is actually a little "slower" than my age-graded time set a year and a half ago when I was 51. Then I ran 3:19:35, which is age-graded a 2:57:10. But the course I ran at age 51 was flatter and I didn't do my 20-mile long run (at race pace) a week before as I did when I was 24. My all-time 10K PR (also set when I was 24) is 36 minutes. My age-graded 10K last year (actual time: 41 minutes), was 35:57, right on the money.

I also am struggling, like Jim, to break 40 minutes in the 10K (for real, not age-graded). I did the aforementioned 41 minutes last year on a tough hilly course and am looking for something flat and during the cool months (I live in South Carolina). The problem is finding a 10K anymore as they are harder to come by than in the '70s and '80s when it seemed like there was one every week. If I can break 40 minutes in my 50s, then I will have done it in my 20s, 30s and 40s. Then I can wait for my 60s and hopefully do it again.

The WAVA tables (and other age-graded tables) assume you lose 1.5-2 seconds per mile, per year of age. Obviously, the better your condition, the closer you are to 1.5. You might improve over several years, as Jim did. But over the long term it holds up. There's just so much you can do to fight off Mother Nature.

Click to view fred-urie's profile Legend 352 posts since
Dec 17, 2007
3. Apr 9, 2008 8:17 AM in response to: Pete O'Boyle
Re: Age graded results

The problem with the age graded stuff is that the training would be different for a 30 and a 60 year old.

Example, at 33 I was running 140 mile weeks with a couple of 155's. The racing 6 months down the road,

would reflect that volume. At age 60, I couldn't put that kind of aerobic stress on my body.

As well, at 33 I wasn't aware of tempo and progression runs. Without those 2 key types of workouts,

I doubt that I reached my potential. So the past and the present cannot be compared.

Click to view Jim24315's profile Legend 1,921 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
4. Apr 9, 2008 8:34 AM in response to: Pete O'Boyle
Re: Age graded results
I also am struggling, like Jim, to break 40 minutes in the 10K

It certainly was a struggle to get that first one, but my least five 10k's have been between 39:22 - 39:38 "for real - not age graded"

There's just so much you can do to fight off Mother Nature.
Even at age 50 and 160 lbs I ran 38:40 off 21 mpw. At 60 I've had to get down to 140 lbs and average more than twice the mileage for almost 3 years to break 40. The difference between 50 and 60 is signficant, to say the least. It would take something in 36's at top shape at 50 to have much hope of sub-40 at 60. I was not in good shape at all when I ran 38:40 at 50.

Had I remained in top shape for the past decade it is highly unlikely that I'd still be improving at this stage as I have. All I've done is get back to the same relative level as peak years. If I'm lucky I might have another good year before the decline resumes.

Click to view oguzkesimli's profile Pro 79 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
5. Apr 10, 2008 9:11 PM in response to: Jim24315
Re: Age graded results
In my prime running years, running in track,
22 year old, (1500 m- 4:06- 84%), (10 000 m- 33:20- %81)
23 year old, (5000 m- 15:15- 85%)

39 year old, track, (10 000 m- 35:50- %77)

40 year old, road, (1/2M- 1:16- %80)

50 year old, road, (1/2M- 1:23- %80)

Training is not the same, as Fred said, 23 year old performance with better endurance component than 22 yo and 50 yo less aneorobic phase than 40 yo. I weigh more than my prime years for sure.
Would I ever approach 84-85% again? I do not really know. Like Jim said, I have to train consistently without injury for a couple of years and see.
Click to view Jim24315's profile Legend 1,921 posts since
Dec 14, 2007
8. Apr 11, 2008 6:13 AM in response to: cuchulain9
Re: Age graded results

I'm sure that I never realized my potential when I was younger, which is probably why I'm able to set age-graded PR's now. I actually set my all-time mileage PR last year at 61 and am on pace to exceed that total so far this year. Except for a few months in 11th grade I never ran a step until early 30's following 14-15 years of bodily abuse that included smoking. In a little more than a year after taking up running I was able to run a 2:48 marathon while averaging low 50's. Within 2 years of that I put the weight back on and training tailed off again (23-33 mpw) until I was 40. At that point I started making another "push" averaging low 50's again, and by 43-44 I set all my PR's. I never had anything other than a minor injury, which leads me to believe I could have tolerated a lot more mileage than what I ran. If there is anything I could do over again it would definitely have been to run more mileage. Whether I could have run 100-mile weeks I'll never know, but I'm pretty sure that 80's-90's would have been possible.

Anyway, I agree that there are very few runners who maxed out their training when they were younger who can run up to the same level when they approach age 50 and beyond. There is a limit to how much the body can take and for how long.

Click to view fred-urie's profile Legend 352 posts since
Dec 17, 2007
9. Apr 11, 2008 9:21 AM in response to: Jim24315
Re: Age graded results
I'll probably hit 80 miles this week with 3 speed at age 60, and I'll be over 100 in a couple of weeks, but I go to bed at 7 PM.

If I had to do it all over again at age 32, I would run 100-120 miles a week with a 10 miler in 58 minutes, and a


12 mile progression run with the last mile in 4:20-4:40 because I know that that stuff works.

Click to view Achilles58's profile Pro 197 posts since
Dec 8, 2004
10. Apr 11, 2008 9:20 AM in response to: cuchulain9
Re: Age graded results

Hi,

I ran sub 30 10k at the UW-Madison in 1976 (4'19 mile in HS). My best recent performance was a 38'53 quarter marathon, i.e. 10.55 k. The tables say I could do about 35min in the 10 k. Like Fred, I just cannot train anywhere near what I did in the 1970s, so I doubt I'll be getting down to 35. I'm going to do a marathon but I'm going easy to avoid an injury; shooting for 3h30 on a very flat course.

More generally, I think that they calculate most of the tables based on the top performers worldwide in a given age group and more or less they say you should be the same % of the world record for your age group.

I've read that the rate of age-related performance decline depends alot on how out of shape you get in the mean time. So if you smoked and got overweight for 2 decades, your deterioration is much more than if you stayed reasonable fit. That may explain why the tables work better for some than for others.

Click to view Achilles58's profile Pro 197 posts since
Dec 8, 2004
11. Apr 11, 2008 9:27 AM in response to: fred-urie
Re: Age graded results
Fred, I lost the thread here on Boomers a while back, but I thought that you had chronic achilles problems (like me). Are they gone?
Click to view fred-urie's profile Legend 352 posts since
Dec 17, 2007
12. Apr 11, 2008 9:32 AM in response to: Achilles58
Re: Age graded results
The top age class performers world wide are probably genetic freaks. Ed Whitlock and Earl Fee can do things to their bodies

that most mortals can't.


Jim beat Porteous a few weeks ago, and I rate that higher than a age graded result.

http://www.pausatf.org/data/BioSMW.html#porteous

Click to view fred-urie's profile Legend 352 posts since
Dec 17, 2007
13. Apr 11, 2008 9:30 AM in response to: Achilles58
Re: Age graded results

Achilles58 wrote:Fred, I lost the thread here on Boomers a while back, but I thought that you had chronic achilles problems (like me). Are they gone?
Both of my achilles hurt right now from running over an uneven surface today. My right achilles has a permanent lump.
Click to view Achilles58's profile Pro 197 posts since
Dec 8, 2004
14. Apr 11, 2008 9:33 AM in response to: fred-urie
Re: Age graded results

"The top age class performers world wide are probably genetic freaks."

I think you can say that of world-class performers at any age!

As long as the degree of freakiness doesn't vary too much with age, then if you PR is 120% of the world record among 20-somethings, then roughly speaking one might expect you'd run 120% of the world record for a 50 yo. No?