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572 Views 18 Replies Latest reply: Apr 29, 2010 9:13 AM by Kyle_ RSS 1 2 Previous Next
FriendswoodBuddha Amateur 31 posts since
Jul 8, 2007
Currently Being Moderated

Apr 28, 2010 9:09 PM

ump assistance

2 part question here.  Little League majors division. 

 

batter up, shows bunt and wags the bat without pulling back, but pitch is high.  does wagging the bat constitute an attempt at ball.  further, umps position may have blocked his view of the wagging.  defense coach asked ump to ask for help from field ump.  no go...

 

so,  does wagging constitute a strike call, and what is proper procedure to get help from field ump?

 

by the way, not involved in game, was observing.  i thought the coach asking for help was wrong thing, as catcher should have asked home ump to ask field ump for help.  seems that i have read that home plate ump only asks for help when asked by catcher.

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    1. Apr 28, 2010 9:45 PM (in response to FriendswoodBuddha)
    Re: ump assistance

    does wagging the bat constitute an attempt at ball?

     

    Only if done while the pitch is in flight.

     

    Why?

     

    See 2.00.  A pitch is a ball delivered to the batter so until it is released it hasn't beeen delivered.

     

    See 2.00: A strike is a pitch the batter attempts to hit and a bunt has to be "deliberately met". Just holding the bat out is not an attempt thus not a strike for reason of it being an attempt.

     

    Bat wagging is legal.

     

    The plate ump only asks for help on a check swing. Either the manager or catcher can ask.

  • DawgDays Pro 156 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    2. Apr 29, 2010 12:04 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: ump assistance

    Wagging the bat could be called a strike if the umpire judges that the batter attempted to "strike at" the pitch.  (See 2.00 STRIKE)  In general, a simple waggle is not going to be called a strike.

     

    DM or catcher can ask PU to get help (9.02c comment), and PU could ask for it.  But if I'm BU, I'm probably not calling strike on a waggle if my partner didn't.  And if I'm PU, I'm going to tell the DM that a waggle by itself is not an offer.

  • Mike_CVUA Legend 593 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    3. Apr 29, 2010 3:58 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: ump assistance

    If the bat is being "waggled" and then brought back, the batter has convinced me that he is taking the pitch.  I will call the pitch on its merits w/r/t the strike zone.

     

    But if he continues to waggle the bat while the pitch comes all the way in, you'd have a tough time convincing me that wasn't a bona fide offer.  Strike!

     

    Holding the bat still is NOT an offer.  But any motion towards the ball, and I will judge an offer.

     

    Unlike pro ball, the catcher or the manager can ask me to go to my partner on a check swing til they are blue in the face.  If I think I need help, I will ask for it.  (And I usually do.)  But I also instruct my partner not to respond to anyone but me.

     

    Mike CVUA

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    4. Apr 29, 2010 5:03 AM (in response to DawgDays)
    Re: ump assistance

    Part 1
    Waggling the bat is NOT against the rules.
    The batter can do it all he wants. (Even when the pitch is coming in.)

    I'm in the camp that WILL NOT call the pitch a strike simply because a batter is waggling his bat while the pitch is in flight. 2.00 says a strike is one that "is struck at by the batter and missed". I've never seen a batter strike at a pitch by waggling his bat.

    Yes it's annoying. But it's not against the rules and it's not an automatic strike. Just because I don't like something, doesn't give me the right to invent a rule to cover it.

    Part 2


    From the OBR:
    Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing ................

     

    If I'm asked to get help, I'm going to my partner.  There's no reason not to.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    5. Apr 29, 2010 5:26 AM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: ump assistance

    OP wrote: batter.... "shows bunt and wags the bat WITHOUT PULLING BACK."  {caps mine}

     

    New Little League rule effective 2010..

    The pitch is to be called a strike if the bat is not withdrawn backwards.

     

    Re: ump assistance

     

     

    Frank!

  • Mason_Dixon_Blue Legend 250 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    6. Apr 29, 2010 6:16 AM (in response to RichW)
    Re: ump assistance

    You might want to read that again Frank.

    That rule change is for softball only.

     

    ITEM 11 - Affects all softball divisions

    Should Rule 2.00 be amended to read:

    Bunt is a batted ball not swung at but intentionally met with the bat and tapped slowly. Holding the bat in the strike zone is considered an attempted bunt. In order to take a pitch, the batter must withdraw the bat backwards away from the ball. (Tee Ball: Bunts are not permitted. Batters are not permitted to take a half-swing. If the umpire feels the batter is taking a half-swing, the batter may be called back to swing again.)

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    7. Apr 29, 2010 6:21 AM (in response to Mason_Dixon_Blue)
    Re: ump assistance

    Softball only Frank.

     

    Changes it to match other softball organizations.

     

    I guess softball umpires aren't up the the challenge of deferminig if it was an attempt 

  • Rob_T Amateur 31 posts since
    Dec 5, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    8. Apr 29, 2010 6:22 AM (in response to Rich_Ives)
    Re: ump assistance

    I've had a discussion about this with one of our regular plate umps.  His philosophy is that if the bat doesn't get pulled back, he's calling it a strike.  His reasoning is that some kids are so poorly skilled that just sticking the bat out there is their "attempt".  While he may not be sticking with the by the book definition, it really is his call as to whether or not the batter "attempted".

     

    As coaches we just make sure the batter pulls back if he is taking, which is probably the smarter thing to do in any case.  That way there is no doubt in the PU's mind as to the batter's intent.

  • Frank_B Legend 1,324 posts since
    May 30, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    9. Apr 29, 2010 6:38 AM (in response to mackman)
    Re: ump assistance

    Right you are guys....Thanks for the correction.

     

    Sad part--I covered that subject with my softball people...and still blew it here

     

    Frank!

  • Rich_Ives Legend 1,283 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    10. Apr 29, 2010 7:02 AM (in response to Frank_B)
    Re: ump assistance

    Your regular plate ump needs to go back to school.

  • Rob_T Amateur 31 posts since
    Dec 5, 2008
    Currently Being Moderated
    12. Apr 29, 2010 8:24 AM (in response to FriendswoodBuddha)
    Re: ump assistance

    Your regular plate ump needs to go back to school.

     

    Yea, it's not the only rule I don't see eye to eye with him on.  The last time he was in school he was sitting next to Moses, so I don't think he's going to be getting any better.  He's a nice enough guy, but kind of set in his ways.  I can deal with the bunt issue, even if I don't agree because I know what to expect.  He's nothing if not consistent.

  • mackman Pro 83 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    13. Apr 29, 2010 8:50 AM (in response to Rob_T)
    Re: ump assistance

    Terrible Terrible rule!

     

    Needs to be thrown out as quickly as possible!

  • Kyle_ Legend 556 posts since
    May 25, 2007
    Currently Being Moderated
    14. Apr 29, 2010 9:13 AM (in response to oldhardballer)
    Re: ump assistance

    The rule is just meant to align itself with the other softball organizations that call it this way.

     

    Awful, yes. But now it's universally awful.

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